Rosie Goes To The Vet

[kendrafitz]

Rosie has been clingier than normal, hasn't had any interest in food lately and when I hold her I can hear her breathe. Not congested breathing, just regular breathing. But in our almost 6 years together I rarely hear her breathing. So I thought it would be a good idea to bring her to the vet.

We haven't been to the vet in about 2 1/2 years because she gets so stressed and worked up while we are there. To say she doesn't handle being toweled well is a major understatement. She hates anything touching her that is fabric unless she is in control. So we have been putting off our well visit. Sadly, our vet, who I LOVED has retired recently.

The office brought in a new exotics vet and assured me that he was comfortable with macaws. A huge relief since we have had issues with a vet being terrified of Rosie in the past.

I have to say, I really like the vet. He was young, but very thorough and spent a lot of time with us. Rosie has a reputation I guess b/c there was a tech and another vet in the room with us as well. It was noted in her chart that she was too freaked out last time to do a thorough exam. My poor girl.

So here was the interesting thing. They asked if they could give her a mild sedative, as studies have proven that it is safer for a very uptight bird to take medication then freak out for the whole visit. I had never heard that before. Once they assured me it was safe for Rosie, we tried it. It was very tough to start bc they had to towel her to give her the medication and she lost it. She ended up flapping around the room until she was in a corner with the towel, crying. Ugh.

Once they gave her the medication, she calmed down and was half asleep quickly. The vets did all the tests they needed with no issues. They are testing her for the routine stuff plus bornavirus to be safe. (Her lack of appetite, a head tick she has and some missing/dull choana is worrying them) I also have to switch her food and start giving her vitamin a, as she seems to be deficient.

But then she had a tough time waking up. They had to give her a shot to reverse the drug, twice. She just couldn't really wake up. Plus, she kept crying, it was so sad. It took quite a while for her to get back to normal. It's been 7 hours and she is just now starting to act like herself.

I was wondering if anyone has ever used a sedative at the vets office for their parrot? They were saying the medication they gave her might have been a bit strong and maybe next time I should give her valium when I am in the waiting room. Has anyone ever done this?

I liked that she wasn't screaming and on the verge of having a stroke or heart attack during the visit. (I am not kidding, I am generally concerned one or the other may happen at the vets office, it is that bad) But I'm not sure that I like the recovery time. I was hoping to get input from others for the future.

[Dragonlady2]

Wow...how scary for you and Rosie. I hope Rosie is back to her old self soon. Is there any chance you could get her used to a towel so that she would be less frantic when she is restrained in one? I can't really handle my Sennie unless he is towelled. He is so used to the towel now that he just allows me to put the towel over his back. I give him his head scratches that he loves and he just snuggles in the towel. Maybe you could play peek-a-boo with Rosie using a colorful, fun towel.
I am not sure that I would be able to have my birds sedated like that. Maybe there are some herbal remedies that Rosie could take, to take the edge off if she has to go again.

[Casper's 2nd best friend]

Rosie is such a prima donna :)
Giving her a mild sedative does seem like a good idea. What about, say once a month, start by giving her her a small amount, gradually building up till you reach a dose that would be suitable for a vets visit. That way you would know exactly what dose to give her before the visit and you will be leaving enough time between doses for her to get it all out of her system. As to what is a suitable sedative to use, a phone call to her vet for advice?

If she starts putting flowers in her feathers and wearing kaftans you have probably got it right :) :very_drunk:

Did they do her bloods and stuff and were the results of the tests good?

[PlaxMacaws]

Poor Rosie. Zaf is also dangerously terrified at vet visits. He becomes so upset that, like you, I worry he may experience a coronary event or a stroke. I think it's important to weigh the possibility of such a catastrophe against the inherent risks of sedation (when it comes to birds like Rosie and Zaf), since with sedation the dangers that have been mitigated tend to be replaced by new ones. Zaf and I have empathy for you two, Kendra :(

BTW, did you mean a head "tic" (as in a twitch or muscle jerk/spasm)? Or a head "tick" (as in a bloodsucking parasite)?

[kendrafitz]

Thanks Helena! It's crazy, I know. I do try peek a boo and all that with her. In fact, earlier this week, I finally got her to come under a "tent" I made with a blanket. It was really just a small area by my head lifted up about 1 foot. After a lot of coaxing she came under just to give me a few "what the heck is wrong with you, you are in danger, get out!" pinches. Then she would back away. We did that a few times with lots of praise. But I'm sure we will be back at square one after yesterday.

She really just hates the towel or blankets unless she is on top of them. I wonder if she had a bad toweling experience when she was very young. I can't even dry her beak off with a towel without her attacking it. Interestingly, I can use a paper towel. I guess they are not as scary. :)

I have tried AviCalm at home but it doesn't seem to have much effect. That was just to help her calm down and stop yelling for me when I am more than 3 feet away. Not sure if there is anything else?

[kendrafitz]

Rosie is such a prima donna :)
Giving her a mild sedative does seem like a good idea. What about, say once a month, start by giving her her a small amount, gradually building up till you reach a dose that would be suitable for a vets visit. That way you would know exactly what dose to give her before the visit and you will be leaving enough time between doses for her to get it all out of her system. As to what is a suitable sedative to use, a phone call to her vet for advice?

If she starts putting flowers in her feathers and wearing kaftans you have probably got it right :) :very_drunk:

Did they do her bloods and stuff and were the results of the tests good?

That may be a very good idea, thank you. When they call with her lab work I will ask about that. I know when he mentioned using Valium next time we come in, he wanted me to do it in the waiting room. That way just in case she has an adverse reaction he is right there.

HA!! Rosie as a laid back flower child would be an interesting sight!!

They did 3 different blood tests. Still waiting for the results. Fingers crossed.

[kendrafitz]

Poor Rosie. Zaf is also dangerously terrified at vet visits. He becomes so upset that, like you, I worry he may experience a coronary event or a stroke. I think it's important to weigh the possibility of such a catastrophe against the inherent risks of sedation (when it comes to birds like Rosie and Zaf), since with sedation the dangers that have been mitigated tend to be replaced by new ones. Zaf and I have empathy for you two, Kendra :(

BTW, did you mean a head "tic" (as in a twitch or muscle jerk/spasm)? Or a head "tick" (as in a bloodsucking parasite)?

Thanks Tony. I know you experience even worse reactions to the vet with poor Zaf. Have you tried light sedation with him?

It was a much easier visit once they caught her and got her sedated. Which was a 5 minute horrible HELP ME squawking, flapping, running process. Once she saw the towel come from behind the vets back she freaked. The sedation made it easier b/c she was only 1/2 awake and didn't seem aware of what was going on. Which made for a very calm Rosie. But recovery time is not what I thought it would be. She couldn't wake up and we were there for about 30 minutes while they tried to wake her. She would wake up and then fall asleep again. So they ended up giving her two shots about 15 minutes apart to reverse the sedation. Not sure what that was?

She finally stopped her pitiful crying last night but she is still very quiet today. Which normally I would be doing a happy dance about, but I know it's due to either trauma yesterday or the medication. So I am keeping close and watching her carefully. My poor girl.

Yes, sorry, I meant tic, she twitches her head a lot. I just thought it was part of her personality, but the vets were concerned.

[Quakerella]

This whole event sounds so traumatizing for you and Rosie. I can't give much advice as I have never dealt with a large bird at the vet.

Not sure how long they last but just wondering if it is possible to give it to her before you leave the house.

[Lady]

Wow Kendra...
I scoured the internet for safe calming remedies for parrots as I'm sure you have. Not having experience what you and Rosie have I would like to hear from other's as well. There are quite a bit of remedies but I would want to consult the avian vet before deciding which might be a good option. Like everyone else we too hope the exam will produce answers to what is going on with Rosie. I'm looking forward to hearing what the outcome is and I pray it is easily treated.

[bill-e]

Kendra, I hope everything turns out well.

The process at my vet is that we sit and talk for 10 minutes before touching Nike in order to get her used to the vets voice. Then the Pak is unzipped and the lights turned off at which time he grabs her with a towel. She squawks for a second or two but then is quiet. I wonder if smaller birds react better in general to toweling and if they do, it might be because you can really bind up and immobilize a small bird so it cant move and that has to be a bit reassuring for them. With a larger bird who either through physical size or strength can struggle, it would seem to me that the struggling just winds them up even more.

I like the idea of a sedative such as valium to take the edge off but I would be concerned about future sedation which knock her out since she seemed to have issues waking up.

maybe a trip to Dr. K in Florida next time:)

[Casper's 2nd best friend]

Bill's post made me think, what about one of those little hoods that they put on birds of prey that are used for hunting? Just a suggestion :)

[Macaw Lover]

Jody also freaks out with the sight of a towel and then to be grabbed by it and wrapped in it is just SOOO stressful on her. She had been like that the first time she had her first vet visit at 4 months of age. She flips onto her back and is ready to fight to her dying breath.

I take her to Dr Scott to get the nails done and for her I allow him to put her under with sedation as that is a lot less stressful in the long run and she has not had any issues coming out of it. I do have to laugh when she is going under, even then she is still squawking longer than it takes other birds to go under.

[kendrafitz]

Thank you everyone for your replies.

I just heard back from the vet with Rosie's blood work. Her panel is positive for bornavirus. He doesn't think I need to do much at this point besides watch her and bring her in 1 - 2 times a year for checks. He did say that I can start her on Vetri-DMG as an immune supplement. He says she may never show symptoms but I need to watch her.

I guess I have a lot of research to do. I really don't know anything about this disease besides it is not curable. Poor Rosie girl.

If anyone knows anything about it or a resource for information, I would love it if you shared. Thanks again!!

[bill-e]

Kendra, I did a little research and it is scary stuff. I think that if it were me I'd be looking for a second and or third opinion as far as treatment goes.
I wish both you and Rosie the best,
Bill

[Casper's 2nd best friend]

Very sorry to hear about Rosie, I hope the bornavirus remains dormant.
I found this link [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]
A Bill recommends a second opinion with more tests seems a good idea to us but Rosie probably has a differing opinion.

[Dragonlady2]

Great link Jean-Pierre. I definitely would get a second opinion just to get a second testing and opinion.
So sorry to hear about poor Rosie.

[PlaxMacaws]

Kendra-

I'm quite shocked at Rosie's diagnosis. Definitely have her retested at a different lab! As you may know, Avian Bornavirus is the precursor for PDD (otherwise known as Macaw Wasting Disease). The peculiar question in my mind is how Rosie may have contracted this virus. As far as I know, infection is believed to only stem from intimate contact with other infected birds, such as from their secretions, feces, etc.

Medical labs have been known to make mistakes and misinterpret samples. Please get a second test done! And absolutely keep us posted!

[kendrafitz]

Thank you for the link JP!!! It was helpful.


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[kendrafitz]

Kendra-

I'm quite shocked at Rosie's diagnosis. Definitely have her retested at a different lab! As you may know, Avian Bornavirus is the precursor for PDD (otherwise known as Macaw Wasting Disease). The peculiar question in my mind is how Rosie may have contracted this virus. As far as I know, infection is believed to only stem from intimate contact with other infected birds, such as from their secretions, feces, etc.

Medical labs have been known to make mistakes and misinterpret samples. Please get a second test done! And absolutely keep us posted!

I was shocked as well. It’s not something I ever thought we would be dealing with. I haven’t heard of false positives as far as the testing goes. Definitely false negatives. But when we go back I will ask for another test.

I am not going to go for another test now as from what I have read, stress can be a factor in triggering ABV to turn to PDD. So I would rather wait and keep an eye on her for the time being. I also read that hormones can be a trigger. Which is worrying for me as Rosie is just turning 6, which means we should be hitting hormones big time.

I have read that ABV can be passed from parent to birds. Which is really the only thing I can figure. She hadn’t been around any birds since she was a baby. We brought her home at around 4 months and she has been an only bird ever since. From what the vet told me it is possible to pass from bird to bird if the uninfected bird has a compromised immune system. It seems like there is a lot to be learned about this virus.

Thank you and everyone for all of the good thoughts. Rosie and I appreciate it!! ❤️


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[Casper's 2nd best friend]

In the link I gave above it did say that the disease may be passed from parent to egg. If you know the breeder where Rosie came from perhaps you should contact them when/if you get confirmation of the disease. They should not be selling more birds from Rosie's parents and their lineage and should be warning the existing owners that there may be a problem with their birds. It would be interesting to hear their reaction and see if they put profit above welfare.

[PlaxMacaws]

I was shocked as well. It’s not something I ever thought we would be dealing with. I haven’t heard of false positives as far as the testing goes. Definitely false negatives. But when we go back I will ask for another test.There is apparently a potential for false positive results on ABV and PDD.


Clinicians often wish to rule out other diseases before they screen for ABV infection since it is possible that some of the symptoms and lesions found might be caused by another disease state.

Until just a few years ago, the only diagnostic tools practitioners had were history, radiography, and signs; thus, clinicians were often unsure of their diagnoses. In an effort to “provide practical, non-invasive screening of populations,” researchers have begun to use cloacal swabs, fecal samples, and blood samples. Some of these tests, however, give false positive, false negative, and inconsistent results. This makes detection and accurate diagnosis very challenging. In addition, two other viruses have been proven to be the cause of the same symptoms as the Avian Bornavirus.

From: [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks] diagnostic method did they use for Rosie? I believe that PCR would produce the most reliable results.


I am not going to go for another test now as from what I have read, stress can be a factor in triggering ABV to turn to PDD. So I would rather wait and keep an eye on her for the time being. I also read that hormones can be a trigger. Which is worrying for me as Rosie is just turning 6, which means we should be hitting hormones big time.I fully understand. And Kendra, I wish I were able to be online more. Unfortunately, I've been bogged down beyond reason of late. However, I will follow this thread very closely. Rosie's PDD diagnosis is horribly upsetting for me! I can only imagine how you must be feeling :'(. FWIW, the local hospital almost killed my mother by terminating one of her critical medications without telling us, and leaving her off of the drug for more than three weeks. She's been at this same hospital since December 26, but will be discharged to a care facility within the next few days - irrespective of the fact that she is not at all well because of their negligence. I'm telling you this because I thought I should give you an update on my availability status. Please don't say more about my situation in this thread. Rosie's situation is critically important and all further discussion here should be exclusively about her. Rosie and you are in my thoughts :heart_broken:

[Macaw Lover]

It might almost be better to test her again now, under stress as it would be during that time that she sheds the virus but I would want any further testing by the Schubot Center as they have done a lot of research on this.

Keep in mind there are so many people that were told their birds were positive for it when in fact it was false positives. That is one of the issues with this disease and has been researched for years. I know of several people that will even refuse to test for it just because it is not a test that is 100% accurate.

If I was in your shoes right now Kendra I would not be freaking out because of the fact that most of the cases where owners have been told this news but it turns out in the long run that it was not an accurate test. I know, easier said than done but I have read of too many situations like this. Take a few deep breaths, relax and in this case, don't totally believe things especially in light of her not having much contact with other birds and if you have always taken precautions and treated yourself as a 'contaminated' person if you have gone somewhere where there are other bird contact, i.e. going to pet stores, club meetings, fairs, that sort of thing.

[kendrafitz]

There is apparently a potential for false positive results on ABV and PDD.

Which diagnostic method did they use for Rosie? I believe that PCR would produce the most reliable results.

I fully understand. And Kendra, I wish I were able to be online more. Unfortunately, I've been bogged down beyond reason of late. However, I will follow this thread very closely. Rosie's PDD diagnosis is horribly upsetting for me! I can only imagine how you must be feeling :'(. FWIW, the local hospital almost killed my mother by terminating one of her critical medications without telling us, and leaving her off of the drug for more than three weeks. She's been at this same hospital since December 26, but will be discharged to a care facility within the next few days - irrespective of the fact that she is not at all well because of their negligence. I'm telling you this because I thought I should give you an update on my availability status. Please don't say more about my situation in this thread. Rosie's situation is critically important and all further discussion here should be exclusively about her. Rosie and you are in my thoughts :heart_broken:



The test they used for Rosie was A&E Avian Bornavirus (PDD) DNA - it was done from a blood draw. I believe the is the PCR test? It looks like the DNA testing is what is done in the PCR test. Am I correct in that?

Thank you again everyone for your help. It really is confusing trying to figure all this out.

[kendrafitz]

It might almost be better to test her again now, under stress as it would be during that time that she sheds the virus but I would want any further testing by the Schubot Center as they have done a lot of research on this.

Keep in mind there are so many people that were told their birds were positive for it when in fact it was false positives. That is one of the issues with this disease and has been researched for years. I know of several people that will even refuse to test for it just because it is not a test that is 100% accurate.

If I was in your shoes right now Kendra I would not be freaking out because of the fact that most of the cases where owners have been told this news but it turns out in the long run that it was not an accurate test. I know, easier said than done but I have read of too many situations like this. Take a few deep breaths, relax and in this case, don't totally believe things especially in light of her not having much contact with other birds and if you have always taken precautions and treated yourself as a 'contaminated' person if you have gone somewhere where there are other bird contact, i.e. going to pet stores, club meetings, fairs, that sort of thing.

I am so clueless on all this Renee. How would I have the testing done with the Schubot Center? Would I have to actually bring her there or could the vet send in blood for testing?

I had no idea that there were so many false positive test results. I didn't think there were any. So that is somewhat comforting. It just really seems like there are so many unknowns with this virus. I guess there is still a lot to be learned about it.

Thank you, you are definitely right. I am trying not to freak out too much. I am obviously sad, but there isn't anything I can really do besides love her and make sure she has everything she needs. Rosie is never around other birds and I only visit birds at the store I purchased her from. Except for one other store I had visited. I am religious about washing my hands as soon as I get home from anywhere before getting Rosie out of her cage. And I change clothing immediately as well b/c she puts holes in everything.

Which is why the only thing I can think of is her getting it genetically, not from another bird. Plus, her immune system hasn't been compromised, so it seems really unlikely for her to catch it from another bird.

Thank you again for the support. I appreciate it!

[Macaw Lover]

I also do not know how to contact someone at the Schubot Center as I have never had a need to but start with this link. [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]

Just coming home a washing hands is not enough from protecting birds from a virus that might have hitched a ride on you when you go somewhere nor can you 'trust' the store that you purchased her from as you have no idea who has walk into that store and carried something in on their shoes or clothes.

I know so many people believe all they have to do is wash their hands or places that touched the bird at when they have a bird in quarantine. That is not good enough. Or the people that put a new bird on the other side of the room, keeping them 'separated'. Like that is doing any good but it seems so many people are not as knowledgeable as they should be.

If I go to a bird fair, I have things in place before I leave. I have a couple pair of Croc's now that work out even better so I leave one pair out in my attached garage and when I come back I strip out there and put things into a bucket and then get them into the laundry after I have had my shower. The shoes I have worn are not brought back into the house until they have been sprayed with F10SC, that is why I have the one pair of Croc's out there waiting for me and when I walk into the shower they come in with me.

Wash your hair, ears, behind those ears, blow your nose, and scrub under your finger nails and toe nails too if you are wearing open toed shoes.

Before I walk into the fair I have with me a really large beach towel that I put on my seal and have taken a brown paper shopping bag that I have cut open and put on the floor for my shoes. I will bring a blanket for the back of my mini van in the event I would buy something and have that spread out so all I would have to do is put stuff in. Not like I would be buying something large like a bird cage as I have enough of those already.

After I have showered I go back out and carefully remove the paper bag being careful to only handle the bottom side of it and pitch that into the garbage can. I spray/wipe anything that I might have touched on the van including the seat belts, radio buttons, door handles and such. The beach towel I fold onto itself like I did with the paper bag and that goes into the laundry with the rest of my clothes. My shoes get sprayed down too.

If I buy anything at a bird fair, yep, you guessed it, it has to be sprayed down too so cutsie things out of materials like paper are not a consideration. That type of stuff I get at online stores that do not go to fairs and such.

Some people would think I was crazy when all they think they have to do is wash their hands, but let's face it, diseases are out there and you have no clue if someone has come into a place that has sick birds.

First couple of times it took me a while to organize how to do things for myself but now I just think Bathroom - make sure I have my wash cloth and towels down there, then prepare the Garage and grab the things I need for the Van.

[kendrafitz]

I also do not know how to contact someone at the Schubot Center as I have never had a need to but start with this link. [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]

Just coming home a washing hands is not enough from protecting birds from a virus that might have hitched a ride on you when you go somewhere nor can you 'trust' the store that you purchased her from as you have no idea who has walk into that store and carried something in on their shoes or clothes.

I know so many people believe all they have to do is wash their hands or places that touched the bird at when they have a bird in quarantine. That is not good enough. Or the people that put a new bird on the other side of the room, keeping them 'separated'. Like that is doing any good but it seems so many people are not as knowledgeable as they should be.

If I go to a bird fair, I have things in place before I leave. I have a couple pair of Croc's now that work out even better so I leave one pair out in my attached garage and when I come back I strip out there and put things into a bucket and then get them into the laundry after I have had my shower. The shoes I have worn are not brought back into the house until they have been sprayed with F10SC, that is why I have the one pair of Croc's out there waiting for me and when I walk into the shower they come in with me.

Wash your hair, ears, behind those ears, blow your nose, and scrub under your finger nails and toe nails too if you are wearing open toed shoes.

Before I walk into the fair I have with me a really large beach towel that I put on my seal and have taken a brown paper shopping bag that I have cut open and put on the floor for my shoes. I will bring a blanket for the back of my mini van in the event I would buy something and have that spread out so all I would have to do is put stuff in. Not like I would be buying something large like a bird cage as I have enough of those already.

After I have showered I go back out and carefully remove the paper bag being careful to only handle the bottom side of it and pitch that into the garbage can. I spray/wipe anything that I might have touched on the van including the seat belts, radio buttons, door handles and such. The beach towel I fold onto itself like I did with the paper bag and that goes into the laundry with the rest of my clothes. My shoes get sprayed down too.

If I buy anything at a bird fair, yep, you guessed it, it has to be sprayed down too so cutsie things out of materials like paper are not a consideration. That type of stuff I get at online stores that do not go to fairs and such.

Some people would think I was crazy when all they think they have to do is wash their hands, but let's face it, diseases are out there and you have no clue if someone has come into a place that has sick birds.

First couple of times it took me a while to organize how to do things for myself but now I just think Bathroom - make sure I have my wash cloth and towels down there, then prepare the Garage and grab the things I need for the Van.

Thank you for the link, I will check it out. :)

Very smart. I think it is awesome how much thought and organization you have put into it. I have never given it that much thought. Just figured changing and washing my hands whenever I get home from anywhere was good enough. It’s horrible that it takes a situation like this to think about being even more cautious. Hopefully someone reading this will learn from your tips. I know I did!! :)

I haven’t ever been to a bird fair, but can totally see why a person would want to be super careful.

With that thought process in mind, I thought I would add something in case you shop online at Bird Paradise. Their stock is at their brick and mortar store. It’s an enormous space. I believe they advertise as over 10,000 sq feet. It is not far from me and it’s where I go if I need something for Rosie quickly. Plus that is where I bought her from so they are very good if I have questions or need help. They usually have tons of birds at the store. All sizes, some in the nursery, some boarding and then in 3 different areas in the store for sale, including the occasional rehome. Plus people bring their birds in for grooming or just to shop. So if you buy items from them you may want to treat them the same way you would items from a bird fair.


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[Macaw Lover]

Quite a few years ago on another board, one of the guys realized we lived about 8 or 9 miles away from each other and wanted to know if our birds could have play dates! You can imagine my answer to that one and am still floored to think he was ok with that as he was not exactly new to the bird world.

[PlaxMacaws]

The test they used for Rosie was A&E Avian Bornavirus (PDD) DNA - it was done from a blood draw. I believe the is the PCR test? It looks like the DNA testing is what is done in the PCR test. Am I correct in that?

Thank you again everyone for your help. It really is confusing trying to figure all this out.Kendra: I don't specifically know what an "A&E ABV DNA" test means or would entail. The name clearly implies that it looks at DNA material at some level. You would have to ask the vet or the lab whether it's a PCR test. The best method to test for presence of the infection is RT-PCR (Reverse Transcription Polymerase Chain Reaction). Here's a link to the testing method to which I'm referring: [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks] The article describes the real-time RT-PCR method vs. the gel-based RT-PCR method.