Too Much

[spiritbird]

Because of recent inflammatory writings about TNT toys and the owner (Jen) I have decided I no longer want to be part of this forum. Goodbye to my long time friends here.

[plax]

Because of recent inflammatory writings about TNT toys and the owner (Jen) I have decided I no longer want to be part of this forum. Goodbye to my long time friends here.Dianne: I'm sorry you feel that way. In my view, bird safety and relevant warnings involving such are significantly more important than friendships and peoples' personal sensitivities. When we place the value of our human relationships above the safety concerns of our cherished pets, something is wrong. My warning about the brittle plastics for use with large birds is warranted. We can't pretend that the risk doesn't exist just to keep friends and maintain supply sources for our own birds if/when they happen to not be affected by the problem with said materials. The current situation here is a near replay of the 'pet bird intermingling with predator animal' avoidance issue from 2014, in that some folks seem to feel that human friendships/relationships should take priority over doing what's safest for our beloved pets in terms of safety protocol enforcement. I will never condone that. Valid safety warnings will always be the priority at Precisely Parrots. But since you have decided to leave us, I must say that I am truly sorry to see you go.

[Mare]

Oh, NOOO...don't leave, Dianne :(. You are so important to all of us!


Tony...what did you DO..?..?!

[LunaLovebird]

Tony, I find your post to be completely disingenuous. For one thing, you have now shifted the goal posts from your originally statement, which was simply that you did not find hard plastic to be safe. You did not specify for big birds at all at that point, and that point was what Jen and others disagreed with. Secondly, you have misrepresented what others have said. No one was in any way placing the value of human wants above that of the needs of their bird.

My posting here had wound down some time ago because of problems I had with this forum that I did not choose to disclose. Unfortunately, I do not feel that these are issues that will be resolved, which is fine. Others clearly enjoy being here. It is your forum and you will run it as you choose, which I can respect, but I for one will no longer be participating.

[plax]

Tony, I find your post to be completely disingenuous. For one thing, you have now shifted the goal posts from your originally statement, which was simply that you did not find hard plastic to be safe. You did not specify for big birds at all at that point, and that point was what Jen and others disagreed with. Secondly, you have misrepresented what others have said. No one was in any way placing the value of human wants above that of the needs of their bird.

My posting here had wound down some time ago because of problems I had with this forum that I did not choose to disclose. Unfortunately, I do not feel that these are issues that will be resolved, which is fine. Others clearly enjoy being here. It is your forum and you will run it as you choose, which I can respect, but I for one will no longer be participating.That's entirely your choice, Kylie. But I have no idea how you can consider it relevant that I didn't mention the bird size that's most at risk in my initial reply to the thread. What I stated in that initial post (post #4) was actually "My concern is that many birds will shatter or bite bits off of those and potentially ingest some of the shards." I didn't specify the size details at that point because I was not planning on the topic turning into the major ordeal that it has in fact become. Instead, I planned to express my warning post and be done with the matter. And, mind you, said statement that I expressed was a very valid warning despite that it didn't contain bird size specifics. It could have been simply read and noted by all; however, Dianne and Shyra essentially proceeded to lambast my opinion with their two posts that followed. So in my following reply post (post #7), I pointed out that the main concern was regarding larger birds by both including the following quote taken from one of Dianne's links:


When considering toys with plastic components a bird owner must consider the nature of the plastic component (i.e., soft vs. brittle) relative to the size of the bird. Brittle plastics should not be given to larger birds because when they break very sharp, cutting edges are formed and if swallowed accidentally could result in ruptured organs. Hard plastic toys specifically designed for parakeets and cockatiels should not be given to larger birds with the beak power to destroy them.

...and as well prefacing my description with the following statement:


I have large macaws. Large macaws will often shatter brittle plastic/acrylic objects.

Again, that was in the second reply post that I submitted to the thread. In my view that well qualifies as a clear indication that my main concern with the plastic parts becoming fractured was for larger parrots. But you know something, Kylie... it doesn't really matter because the warning is important enough that it shouldn't initially have to be as specific as you are indicating! It's always best to get a warning such as this one out promptly in short form so it becomes acknowledged as soon as possible by as many folks as possible. The specifics can always follow. I try to err on the side of caution, meaning: it's far better not to take the chance at all with a product that can prove very dangerous for certain birds than to attempt to accurately assess variable details mentioned within an information-packed warning when said information may or may not be able to be applied to one's bird correctly. The details can be researched and weighed later. And in this case, I provided some of those details within my very next reply post.

Personally, Kylie, I think you are nit-picking on a very important message that needed to be stated. Do you know for a fact that a Sulfur-crested Cockatoo, like Michelle's Charlie, cannot muster enough power to fracture one of those hard plastic parts given all possible situations? I don't. But I suspect some individuals of the species may be able to do so. Again, I like to err on the side of caution and get the warning out! And just so you know, although I care about injured human feelings, I believe that avoiding them should never take priority over bird safety concerns. Bird safety should always be the priority! When friendships among forum members here and/or with other bird enthusiasts cloud concern for important bird safety awareness, I'm going to step in (if and when I can) to force that safety awareness to the forefront. I can't force anyone to see the merit in various warnings and place the gist of those warnings above what may be more comfortable for them personally or socially. But I can press those warnings here even when they may intrude upon friendships, convenience, or profit and thus cause resentment enough among various members that they opt to leave our community (such as is the case with yourself and Dianne - and likely some others).

The bottom line is that I was NOT inconsistent or disingenuous -as you've claimed- and the warning at issue is a very valid one that should be heeded by all bird guardians who either currently have, or may at some point become involved with birds who are capable of breaking the plastic toy parts. We went through a very similar scenario here in 2014 in which our staff members ignored our bird safety protocol and a firestorm among our active member base ensued. Many folks sided with those staff people who were ignoring the protocol and thus conspired to draw as many members away from PP's community as they could. So I'm well familiar with the social cliquishness that at times tends to prevail over what's right and proper, even when it comes to bird safety.

[Lady]

Oh my :(

[mdg1109]

Dianne, please do not leave us I truly value your input and your guidance and your joy that you bring to the forum.

I do not understand why we have to pick at each other or attack others, I am truly starting to wonder about posting anything on here and just looking at it for information to learn about my fid.

Everyone has a right to express there opinion but there is a way of doing so respectfully without making others feel attacked.

Dianne I truly hope you do not leave and Savannah I hope you reconsider.

[lolsavannahh]

Glad my opinion was removed from that post up there about recent events, glad to see my assumption was right, this is a totalitarianism. I never mentioned anyone's name or called anyone any kind of mean word I simply said that we should talk about birds and not argue about silly things.







Admin Edit:
Moved from inappropriate forum section - by plax

[lolsavannahh]

I agree completely Michele! What's the point of posting m opinion on here it it will be removed or ridiculed by even the owner of this site. I love PP but it's starting to become more of a dictatorship instead of the nice system we had before. Everyone is too opinionated and goes about it all in the wrong ways. No point in posting if nobody will read it because it got deleted!!!

Sorry to voice my opinion and call people out which I rarely do, but I am disappointed in what this forum is coming to. I agree our birds health should come before all else but there were different ways you could have gone about dealing with the TNT toys situation, Tony, and in my opinion you have lost a lot of good members because of it. I'm not saying to ignore potentially dangerous situations, I'm just saying we should all try to be more civil.

[plax]

I agree completely Michele! What's the point of posting m opinion on here it it will be removed or ridiculed by even the owner of this site. I love PP but it's starting to become more of a dictatorship instead of the nice system we had before. Everyone is too opinionated and goes about it all in the wrong ways. No point in posting if nobody will read it because it got deleted!!!

Sorry to voice my opinion and call people out which I rarely do, but I am disappointed in what this forum is coming to. I agree our birds health should come before all else but there were different ways you could have gone about dealing with the TNT toys situation, Tony, and in my opinion you have lost a lot of good members because of it. I'm not saying to ignore potentially dangerous situations, I'm just saying we should all try to be more civil.Savannah is referring to some remarks that she included within a thread starter post that she recently published in the Training section. I deleted those remarks and then PM'd her about them. She replied to my PM, essentially stating the same complaints she has expressed herein. Since she has misinterpreted the situation and carried that misinterpretation into this thread, I'm pasting the verbatim text from my private response to her, below.


Savannah: If you would have posted your remarks in one of the threads relevant to the issue, or if you had started a new thread in the Controversial Topics section, I would not have removed the content. It did not belong in the Training forum. The fact that you appeared to be criticizing the very thing you were doing was not a factor in my decision to edit. So it was not censorship.

Your comments have been duly noted. But when someone obstructs bird safety rules simply because they feel that a warning was not presented in a friendly enough way, that's placing social expectation ahead of the good faith intent behind the warning. Bird safety is the priority on this message board. If people don't like the way I word things, that's akin to criticizing one's grammar. I consider both attitudes to be rude and disrespectful. I am who I am, and that includes my personality and inclinations. That's true of everyone; we can't all be the same in terms of tact and the ability to meet social expectation. There should not be a requirement that everyone voicing a legitimate warning or concern meet the "niceness" criteria before they are taken seriously. If there is, then in my opinion the values of many folks are mixed up.

[lolsavannahh]

You seem to have deleted it more because you don't want it rather than " it was in the wrong place". It's not like I started a new thread directly to talk about that, I stated it to try to lighten the mood and then, right after, talked about Nash's training. Am I not allowed to talk about other threads in a different section? Once more I was never rude or state my opinion on either end of the conrrsation but rather just a aid let's be more civil and stop arguing because a lot of people have been leaving. I didn't even really bring up the topic of plastic toys very much so I am still confused. Could I not talk about a Senegal parrot in the budge section? Isn't that the same concept?

[plax]

You seem to have deleted it more because you don't want it rather than " it was in the wrong place". It's not like I started a new thread directly to talk about that, I stated it to try to lighten the mood and then, right after, talked about Nash's training. Am I not allowed to talk about other threads in a different section? Once more I was never rude or state my opinion on either end of the conrrsation but rather just a aid let's be more civil and stop arguing because a lot of people have been leaving. I didn't even really bring up the topic of plastic toys very much so I am still confused. Could I not talk about a Senegal parrot in the budge section? Isn't that the same concept?It belongs in this subforum, Savannah. Here is your content that I removed:


Wow so I was gone for a couple hours and things really heated up here.. This tends to happen a lot on here...I try to stay out of it because frankly I just don't care. At all. Arguing online with random strangers makes me feel nothing and I hope you will all feel the same way so we can move on with our happy lives and talk about how pretty our birds are instead of trying to make each-other our own puppets to do and say what we do and say, everyone has their own opinion and it seems to be more like everyone thinks they're the Dictator. Lets all get along and unless someone posts a picture of their bird inside of an alligator's head, lets try to be civil about our disagreements.

( there is obviously a time and place where a birds life could be in danger, of course, and we need to speak up because we are ALL very educated and passionate about birds.. but more often then not on here things get way too heated way too fast and every single person on here takes it personally. I believe it was Luna who said something along the lines of " It's not you as a person we are arguing against, it is your opinion we do not like".. Stop taking every inch of criticism to heart people!! Someone could say they don't like your hat but that doesn't mean they don't like you! WE love and appreciate every one of you and we all know you love your birds dearly.. if you don't agree with something and it is not absolutely life threatening 90%+ of the time, just don't say anything! They will learn from their mistakes! Certainly, when you are discussing bird matters you can reference other threads and even quote other discussions. But when you have a serious gripe with someone, management or otherwise, it belongs in the Controversial Topics section. That's what it was created for. And your speculation about my intent for editing your post is just that: a guess, that if true would benefit your argument. But your guess is entirely erroneous. Your statement to the contrary is effectively accusing me of lying about the issue. I do not at all appreciate that.

Allow me to pose some questions to you, Savannah: How far do you feel you would have gotten with your current approach in this matter (i.e., being publicly confrontational to a site administrator, or even to a super moderator) on one of the other companion bird forums? Do you think they would have allowed you to express the public confrontational content you've published here? Do you believe that you would have escaped a ban? Please let me know.

[Dragonlady2]

From my perspective, I didn't find Tony's caution about the plastic parts to be necessarily offensive. From what I have observed, that is the practice when safety issues come up. Although it was a TNT toy, I think it could have been anyone's toy and the warning would have been the same. It's unfortunate that it kind of blew up from there. However, I will say this,I have been and am on other forums and haven't seen other administrators and/or moderators being challenged as has happened here. I don't necessarily agree with the approach taken, but if I had an issue, I would privately message to get clarity before I create more controversy.
This has gone way past the point of being useful, IMO. The message regarding safety has been totally lost and that's a shame.

[Karen]

I wish I could offer some words of wisdom to make all this better but all I can say is; the caution came from a place of love and caring. IMO, there was no malice intended toward any person or business.

Any one of us on any given day could be the messenger because we all have the birds as our first interest. We are their voice and it falls on us to speak for them if we see something that may harm them. We all have topics that are close to the heart too. As a group I'd like to think we can accept that. We can say thank you for the heads up, choose if that information is relevant to our situation and move on.

We all come from a place of love and caring. Could we all take a deep breath.

[lolsavannahh]

I agree with what Tony said! I totally do not think hard plastics should be in bird toys regardless of who makes them, I am not trying to further the issue or take sides! I was referencing the argument in general ( it could have been about anything ) and voicing an OPINION that I believe Tony did not handle it in a way that I THINK would have been more effective. Never was I criticizing Tony or trying to, but just his method of handling it was not what I would have done but it's totally fine that he did what he did, I cannot control other people.

I don't know why this has heated up and I am sorry for being so brash about it. This forum is good only when you talk about pretty birds or something of the sort, whenever it gets into controversial topics everyone gets very angry at one another and someone always leaves. Yes, I pointed Tony out because I thought he could handle the criticism, but it could have been anyone that I would have named! Everyone gets out of hands sometimes and of course I do too. I believe I have gotten out of hand here in this argument, but tone of voice does not travel well online and people need to realize that before bashing other people.

I do not have a serious gripe with anyone and certainly not you Tony. You are misreading the entire situation.
This is not about other companion forums this isn't even about this one! I am confused why this has gone so far! I never accused you of lying about anything I don't understand where you got that from at all!

[plax]

I agree with what Tony said! I totally do not think hard plastics should be in bird toys regardless of who makes themThat's good to hear.


This forum is good only when you talk about pretty birds or something of the sort, whenever it gets into controversial topics everyone gets very angry at one another and someone always leaves.I'll tell you one of the main reasons that happens. It's because of our virtual no ban / no censorship policy here. Our members can say pretty much whatever they wish, as long as it's not deliberately malicious or unsafe, and as long as it's posted under the correct forum category. With freedom like this some folks will take the initiative and go a bit overboard with criticism. At times it may even border on social bullying (i.e., a collective attack against one individual - typically myself). But I should also say that the criticisms and attacks that I will allow upon myself, I will not tolerate against another member. So please always be mindful of that reality. A virtual no ban policy doesn't mean that bans never happen.


I do not have a serious gripe with anyone and certainly not you Tony. You are misreading the entire situation.I'm not so sure that I am. And that's because when you post things like:


Glad my opinion was removed from that post up there about recent events, glad to see my assumption was right, this is a totalitarianism....it really says the opposite: that you do/did have a major gripe with me. And it would be me who your gripe is/was with, since I'm the owner and administrator of this website and because I'm the one who edited your post. No matter, though. If you've simmered down that's the important thing :)


I am confused why this has gone so far! I never accused you of lying about anything I don't understand where you got that from at all!Well Savannah, I'll tell you where I got it from... I got it from your following text:


You seem to have deleted it more because you don't want it rather than " it was in the wrong place".You posted that statement after I explained to you that I edited out your complaint text from the Training forum because it didn't belong there. The only thing I can infer from your above words is that you feel my explanation is not truthful and that my intent was actually to censor you.

So there you have it.

[lolsavannahh]

I believe we have come to a consensus, and I am glad! I don't know what I would do if I were to be banned for a simple misunderstanding on both parts.. I never meant to be rude or accuse you of lying. and like I said it's nothing to do with Tony! Love you all!

[The Pinkertons]

You are loved...welcome home , glad you reconsidered life is to short to let this kind of misunderstanding get in the way.

[Mare]

I've been out of town for a few days and happy to see things have worked out..Tony...don't do that again! :)

[plax]

I've been out of town for a few days and happy to see things have worked out..Tony...don't do that again! :)


:hopelessness::suspicion:




EDIT:
Humor aside, my warning in post #4 is valid and was warranted. There will be no apologies for that. I will warn in a similar manner whenever necessary. I encourage other members to do the same. Bird safety will remain the priority on this message board.

[Lady]

Such a good host you are Tony to take the heat for all that shouldn't of happened.

PLEASE KEEP POSTING POTENTIAL WARNINGS!

Lady is benefiting from it as well as myself. I will be getting her some new toys this week. I took her current ones apart and removed what could very well of been a disaster if not for your concerns about what could happen! THANK YOU!

[94lt1]

People...idk how many forums you've been a part of ..but let me tell you..as a super moderator for a major forum site.. Tony is one of the most relaxed owners/admin I've ever seen or worked with..it's not uncommon to move or delete a post and pm the op..it's how we do things because we have powers on the server that allow us to cleanly and quickly get it done...

As per your opinion of his statement ..it's just that.. opinion. Mine can be the same or different..but just because he doesn't like something from a safety standpoint ..doesn't mean he's trying to belittle or offend anyone or their company..

I've known Tony for a while..as a regular member and as smod for him..you see I'm a member again due to not being able to be here when I was needed...no big deal... but we don't make money from doing this..he does this for the spread of safe bird info and has done it in a very neutral way..at least to me..

He loves his flock...and I love my birds..and I know that if it comes from Tony. Its not going to hurt my feathered pains in my butt..i respect that.

The predator with bird videos ..i agree with that too..these are our babies...they rely on us to keep them safe..

The condition that he's probably trying to avoid from happening is crop monoliths..and there are several conditions closely related.. especially if you have a shredder bird..and my baby girl is just that.and starburst is a chewer..it's hard to find toys that engage these fluff butts and that are safe..thanx Tony ..keep looking out..

Please excuse the typos..my phone wants to meet the wall lol

[The Pinkertons]

Thanks Brandon for your support in this matter