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BirdWhisperer
02-19-2016, 04:31 PM
Thank you for reading, I need some opinions on whether all this is normal.

I don't know why but I'm just thinking it hit me and my husband and struck us as odd... I'm not saying I can trust Rubys old owner but she said she had the bird 6 years and the bird and her family had not gotten sick. We had the bird for 2 weeks or so, we have not noticed anything any kind of illness with Ruby or us. This brings me to some questions...

1. The vet claims they gave Ruby a antibody test and she tested positive for exposure. Yesterday when we went back for the other test, the doctor said there is no doubt she was exposed to parrot fever. Oddly he didn't even come In to see me until 2 hours later only after I requested to speak to him about Ruby bleeding from her bottom after having all the tests done.
Anyway the nurses never wore gloves or a mask, in fact one nurse got bit pretty badly by Ruby, AND the doctor wore no protective gear! If indeed Ruby had really been exposed to "parrot fever" then why would they touch her bottom and swab it with no gloves! Also why would they swab her mouth and take her blood with no gloves! No face masks either!!!???

2. The first test and general check up was over $300, well yesterday's test was almost $200, basically $150 to get it done and $50 to even see the doctor which again we did not get to do until after I requested to see him! I find it very odd that he didn't even want to show his face, he wanted the nurses to handle it! Does anyone else find this odd!? I feel like some funny business is going on! Hey if he needed money just ask, but I hate the thought of putting Ruby through tests she doesn't need! The doctor said its 50/50 she could have it, but with her being so healthy and active he'd be surprised if she has it! Well which one is it doctor!!! My husband says it's more like 99/1.

3. Is it normal for vets to be so afraid of getting bit they nape the bird around the neck, at one point even letting the bird slide to the floor!? I made sure to tell them yesterday be very careful Ruby can't even glide down thank goodness they didn't let her fall yesterday like they did the first time.

4. Last but not least, during the first test for the antibodies the doctor made sure to tell me to call on Wednesday because he would be at work on Wednesday which would make a week which is no big deal to me, but here is what I found odd... The doctor told me that he would rather I talk to him and that's why he didn't want me to call sooner or later, he didn't want the other doctors to be bothered with this since it's his patient. Does anyone else find this odd that the doctor did not want me talking to other doctors about it?

I had called another avian vet to ask if these tests can be false and they said yes and they wouldn't be too concerned. Also websites say that parrot fever is extremely rare only like 50 cases a year.

I swear I feel like funny business is going on, I hope not because if so that's bull putting people through unneeded stress for money!

spiritbird
02-19-2016, 04:38 PM
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BirdWhisperer
02-19-2016, 04:42 PM
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Thank you I will do some research and click this link. :)

lolsavannahh
02-19-2016, 05:20 PM
Vets are very busy and in the several times I have gone for my pets and Nash too, I rarely saw the doctor unless something was wrong. Just for check ups he never came in because he had other stuff to do like operate on other animals etc, so it's not a shock that he didn't see you.

Also I find it hard to believe your little birdie has parrot fever because like you said, it's a very rare disease. By this time, if it was said Parrot Fever ( Chlamydophila psittaci ) You would have it too, and any/all of the nurses and doctors in contact. If Ruby has come in ANY contact with another bird, they have it too. But like I said, I doubt it is that.

You said she has been bleeding from the bum, which is not a sign of the common Parrot Fever, but could be a number of other things. The most tell tale sign of Parrot fever is eye-discharge, which I don't think you mentioned. Other non-tell tale signs are: laboured breathing, diarrhoea, poor appetite, lethargy, "fluffed up" appearance, or weakness. I suggest getting in contact with an actual avian vet, and speak with them about what you should do, and set up an appointment with them. It's better safe than sorry.

BirdWhisperer
02-19-2016, 05:34 PM
Vets are very busy and in the several times I have gone for my pets and Nash too, I rarely saw the doctor unless something was wrong. Just for check ups he never came in because he had other stuff to do like operate on other animals etc, so it's not a shock that he didn't see you.

Also I find it hard to believe your little birdie has parrot fever because like you said, it's a very rare disease. By this time, if it was said Parrot Fever ( Chlamydophila psittaci ) You would have it too, and any/all of the nurses and doctors in contact. If Ruby has come in ANY contact with another bird, they have it too. But like I said, I doubt it is that.

You said she has been bleeding from the bum, which is not a sign of the common Parrot Fever, but could be a number of other things. The most tell tale sign of Parrot fever is eye-discharge, which I don't think you mentioned. Other non-tell tale signs are: laboured breathing, diarrhoea, poor appetite, lethargy, "fluffed up" appearance, or weakness. I suggest getting in contact with an actual avian vet, and speak with them about what you should do, and set up an appointment with them. It's better safe than sorry.

Thank you for the reply. :)

Ruby has had no runny eyes, no runny nose, no lime green diarrhea, no lethargy, no ruffled feathers except for when she is sleeping, and no labored breathing, and her appetite is just as picky as ever lol. When they checked her weight the first time they said it was good, we got her weighed again yesterday and it's still good she has not lost any at all.

lolsavannahh
02-20-2016, 02:55 AM
well then that's good to hear, it could just be a fluke and nothing is wrong. I hope for the best(:

BirdWhisperer
02-20-2016, 03:56 AM
well then that's good to hear, it could just be a fluke and nothing is wrong. I hope for the best(:

Thanks, I hope so too. :)

PlaxMacaws
02-20-2016, 04:15 AM
Again, to me it seems that a false positive is likely. But also be mindful that the presence of antibodies from exposure does not equate to the active illness. Birds can carry psittacosis and show no symptoms whatsoever. However, as discussed, the illness is quite rare. I will therefore say that at this point I am personally doubtful that Ruby has even been exposed to the pathogen.

In my own experience, I have found that some veterinarians will order/perform unnecessary procedures simply for profit. I am not implying that I believe your current vet has done this in Ruby's case. That will be for you and your husband to decide. However, as an example, I can point you to an incident that happened to my Hyacinth, Zaffer, and myself shortly after he came to live with me approximately 10 years ago. The link to the incident is pasted below:

[Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]!-(2005)

I as well think your observations and concerns seem valid (to a point). Based upon your description of events, it certainly does not appear that the clinical staff folks were terribly concerned about spreading the psittacosis pathogen at their facility during the procedures. At the very least that tends to make one wonder.

I think you have been given some good advice about seeking a genuine avian veterinarian for a second opinion. If possible, locate one who holds status as an "ABVP-avian diplomat". ABVP (or American Board of Veterinary Practitioners) is the certifying body that issues board certifications to veterinarians within the United States. A vet without the ABVP-avian status is not a certified avian veterinarian.

As always, please keep us updated.

BirdWhisperer
02-20-2016, 04:38 AM
Again, to me it seems that a false positive is likely. But also be mindful that the presence of antibodies from exposure does not equate to the active illness. Birds can carry psittacosis and show no symptoms whatsoever. However, as discussed, the illness is quite rare. I will therefore say that at this point I am personally doubtful that Ruby has even been exposed to the pathogen.

In my own experience, I have found that some veterinarians will order/perform unnecessary procedures simply for profit. I am not implying that I believe your current vet has done this in Ruby's case. That will be for you and your husband to decide. However, as an example, I can point you to an incident that happened to my Hyacinth, Zaffer, and myself shortly after he came to live with me approximately 10 years ago. The link to the incident is pasted below:

[Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]!-(2005)

I as well think your observations and concerns seem valid (to a point). Based upon your description of events, it certainly does not appear that the clinical staff folks were terribly concerned about spreading the psittacosis pathogen at their facility during the procedures. At the very least that tends to make one wonder.

I think you have been given some good advice about seeking a genuine avian veterinarian for a second opinion. If possible, locate one who holds status as an "ABVP-avian diplomat". ABVP (or American Board of Veterinary Practitioners) is the certifying body that issues board certifications to veterinarians within the United States. A vet without the ABVP-avian status is not a certified avian veterinarian.

As always, please keep us updated.

Thank you. May I add another odd thing was, when they took the swab from Ruby they literally laid the bare swab on the exam table, I thought wow why would a nurse lay a swab that touched my Rubys bottom if she could be harboring some illness like parrot fever on an exam table without placing it immediately into a bag or vial. I thought that was weird.

Anyway I will click that link, and I will definitely not be returning there anymore.

PlaxMacaws
02-20-2016, 05:05 AM
May I add another odd thing was, when they took the swab from Ruby they literally laid the bare swab on the exam table, I thought wow why would a nurse lay a swab that touched my Rubys bottom if she could be harboring some illness like parrot fever on an exam table without placing it immediately into a bag or vial. I thought that was weird.Not only that, but it as well contaminates the sample! I think that if I were you I would run as far as possible from that particular clinic.

Camelotshadow
02-20-2016, 05:12 AM
I don't think they are making up the lab result or need for a follow up test for money but they do sound like they are not using necessary safety procedures.
First of all they should use gloves so they don't transmit disease between animals. Your bird could get infected from another bird they touched
if they are not washing there hands. 2ndly laying a swab down on a surface exposes it to pathogens
on the surface which could contaminate the sample. Not likely that there could be parrot fever on the table but its just BAD medical practice.
I think they sound inept to me not complying with rudimentary medical safety procedures & I would not feel comfortable using them.

I had to go to the dr Wed to get a routine blood pressure med refill & today I came down with sneezes & a runny nose. I haven't been sick in way over a year.
So I go there & breathe in the germs in the air & get sick!

:miserable:

BirdWhisperer
02-20-2016, 05:15 AM
Not only that, but it as well contaminates the sample! I think that if I were you I would run as far as possible from that particular clinic.

Me and my husband both figured why would they use the same exact swab they used on her mouth to do her bottom, and then lay the swab on the table! If Ruby had indeed been exposed to parrot fever then why are they taking no precautions, I swear it's insane. The swab would contaminate the table, and oddly the table would contaminate the swab! Not only that among other things, but I truly thought they were kind of rough with Ruby. Im not saying I want anyone bit, but it truly bothers me to see someone so afraid of being bit by a bird that they scruff it by its neck, it just don't look right I would never scruff Ruby, ever. It just all don't add up.

I read your link and I'm sorry your buddy went through all that, I just don't trust vets! It's wrong what they do to animals all just to make some quick cash.

Camelotshadow
02-20-2016, 05:20 AM
Me and my husband both figured why would they use the same exact swab they used on her mouth to do her bottom

That is just insane!

BirdWhisperer
02-20-2016, 05:27 AM
I don't think they are making up the lab result or need for a follow up test for money but they do sound like they are not using necessary safety procedures.
First of all they should use gloves so they don't transmit disease between animals. Your bird could get infected from another bird they touched
if they are not washing there hands. 2ndly laying a swab down on a surface exposes it to pathogens
on the surface which could contaminate the sample. Not likely that there could be parrot fever on the table but its just BAD medical practice.
I think they sound inept to me not complying with rudimentary medical safety procedures & I would not feel comfortable using them.

I had to go to the dr Wed to get a routine blood pressure med refill & today I came down with sneezes & a runny nose. I haven't been sick in way over a year.
So I go there & breathe in the germs in the air & get sick!

:miserable:

I just want to wake up from the nightmare, I'm dreading the results.

I can't say he is forging all this for money, then again I wouldn't know because he never showed me any documentation, he only told me over the phone.

It's just really sad that I take more precautions than they do. They knew I was bringing her and they still wore no gloves, no masks, they use the same swab on her bottom that they used for her mouth, and they laid the swab down on the table.
One of the nurses even got bit by Ruby, in fact my husband showed me when the nurses stepped out where Ruby tore a bloody piece of skin off the ladies finger and it fell on the exam table. Gross. It's all just odd.

If I was a vet nurse or doctor and I had a bird with possible parrot fever on my hands I would definitely use gloves, a mask, and make sure to use two different swabs and place them in the vial or bag immediately.
It's just weird that the doctor said it's 50/50 she could have parrot fever yet they were so loopy about everything. It would be like going to Africa to combat the Ebola crisis while putting oneself in danger too. :/

Either way I just can't wait for the results, its really stressing me out. :(

BirdWhisperer
02-20-2016, 05:32 AM
That is just insane!

I know, they literally swabbed her mouth, used their bare hands to move her feathers near her bottom and proceeded to use the very same swab on her bottom! She ended up bleeding a tad due to that exam thank goodness it didn't last long. After swabbing her mouth and bottom with the same cotton swab they laid it down on the exam table while they tried to get Ruby's blood, they wore no gloves while trying to take her blood. They couldn't get blood so they had to take her for a few minutes.

PS. Sorry you have a cold.

PlaxMacaws
02-20-2016, 06:12 AM
That's just unimaginable! Have you thought about confronting them concerning their procedural incompetence?

BirdWhisperer
02-20-2016, 01:11 PM
That's just unimaginable! Have you thought about confronting them concerning their procedural incompetence?

I honestly think I will after my results just in case they would try to forge them, once I get those back I will confront the doctor. I told my husband even if it came back positive how could I even trust the doctor?

BirdWhisperer
02-20-2016, 02:39 PM
Well I called the place pet care in va concerning Ruby I don't want the results! I told em she's not sick, I'm afraid the results will be forged. The receptionist said dr hahls won't be in until Tuesday so he can't talk to me until then and by then the test will done be sent out!!! Anyway I asked her if there was anyone I could talk to and she said well the other doctors are here but since dr hahls is Rubys Doctor she would advice that I wait to talk to him, she said all the other doctors would have to go through Rubys chart, and again she told me she doesn't want me talking to the other doctors. I said I'm just worried I need to talk to someone and she said as far as I'm concerned this is all I can do for you ma'am. I won't say she was rude but again I found it weird that she didn't want me to speak to any other doctor. Doctor hahls also oddly the last two times I went he also didn't want me calling and speaking to any other doctor about Ruby. I'm seriously afraid they will forge it so I will have to seek treatments through them for more money, I'm not afraid anymore I know Ruby don't have it! I'm telling you my baby don't have it! I don't want no unneeded shots or treatments! Dr hahls even told me that he will have to contact the authorities if she has it, which again is none of the authorities business!

Bird Mom
02-20-2016, 03:42 PM
Why are you so afraid this vet is "out to get you"? If you really do not trust the vet then you need to find another one soon. If Ruby does have this disease you're putting your daughter at risk and she should be more important than anything. Birds are very good at hiding illnesses. If it were me I would be isolating that bird away from my daughter and patiently waiting for the test results to decide what to do next. If you can't afford the treatments then rehome her to someone who will pay for them and find out if the others have contracted it too. It's not worth putting your daughter at risk. If I had any vet tell me my bird may possibly have a disease that is dangerous to people then I wouldn't even want that bird anymore, especially a bird I've owned for about a week. Again, it's Not worth putting a child at risk. Parrot fever can be deadly to people with slightly weakened amune systems and she's only two! I'm not being trying to be rude, I'm just being honest with you. I hope the tests are negative.

PlaxMacaws
02-20-2016, 04:08 PM
Kristin: Allow me to clarify the statement I made in my last post - I should have phrased it a bit better. What I meant by "Have you thought about confronting them concerning their procedural incompetence?" was in no way to suggest that you should accuse the vet or his staff of falsifying results or having the intent to do so. Instead, I meant to question them about the very flawed sampling techniques that they used (which you witnessed).

While I harbor some doubt that Ruby is infected with the psittacosis pathogen, in my view the potentially negative consequences of its actual presence are serious enough to rule out dropping the matter and presuming there is no threat. As has been suggested, you should locate a board certified avian veterinarian and schedule an appointment for a professional and competent assessment of Ruby. I think you really need a second opinion from someone who is well qualified.

BirdWhisperer
02-20-2016, 04:51 PM
Why are you so afraid this vet is "out to get you"? If you really do not trust the vet then you need to find another one soon. If Ruby does have this disease you're putting your daughter at risk and she should be more important than anything. Birds are very good at hiding illnesses. If it were me I would be isolating that bird away from my daughter and patiently waiting for the test results to decide what to do next. If you can't afford the treatments then rehome her to someone who will pay for them and find out if the others have contracted it too. It's not worth putting your daughter at risk. If I had any vet tell me my bird may possibly have a disease that is dangerous to people then I wouldn't even want that bird anymore, especially a bird I've owned for about a week. Again, it's Not worth putting a child at risk. Parrot fever can be deadly to people with slightly weakened amune systems and she's only two! I'm not being trying to be rude, I'm just being honest with you. I hope the tests are negative.

Have you read any of my posts? I never said they were necessarily out to get me, but even doctors lie as money is the root of all evil. So do I think this vet could be falsifying these claims for money? Absolutely! Again she only tested positive for antibodies not the actual disease.

As for finding another vet, I'm trying.

Ruby don't have this disease, the disease is very rare. I'm not putting my daughter at risk, I keep her away from Ruby at all times. I'm definitely not a moron, I know what I'm doing. I also never claimed to love Ruby more than my flesh and blood daughter.

I've had Ruby more than a week, and again my daughter is not at risk - Ruby is under qaurrantine. Also I understand you wouldn't want the bird, I mean this in no offense but many people would just throw out an animal they deem as a problem, that's not me. Parrot fever again is extremely rare and it is treatable. I'm not getting rid of Ruby. Also who said I can't afford treatments? I never once stated that, I can afford many many treatments that's not the point! The point is why would I subject my bird to any shots or treatments that she may not need if indeed all this was falsified? I'm anti vax I know what the government puts in vaccines. Go ahead and laugh at me you wouldn't be the only one...

Also you said you wouldn't even keep a bird like Ruby who again could be perfectly normal, so my question is what about a child with aids? Would you risk your health for a child with aids? Let me add my daughter is NOT at risk. Let me answer the question I posed to you, I could careless about any aids virus or ebola my life is but a vapor its here for a short while but will vanish away. Does this make sense ? I care more about people and animals than I do myself. This is not to say I don't care about myself, I do but again a illness does not make anyone or anything invalid. Look at Chernobyl many men died to spare thousands actually millions of lives. This may sound stupid but it sounds totally sane to me. In the end Ruby is not sick. I have my reasons and I have my faith to back it up but I won't talk about that here.

BirdWhisperer
02-20-2016, 04:54 PM
Kristin: Allow me to clarify the statement I made in my last post - I should have phrased it a bit better. What I meant by "Have you thought about confronting them concerning their procedural incompetence?" was in no way to suggest that you should accuse the vet or his staff of falsifying results or having the intent to do so. Instead, I meant to question them about the very flawed sampling techniques that they used (which you witnessed).

While I harbor some doubt that Ruby is infected with the psittacosis pathogen, in my view the potentially negative consequences of its actual presence are serious enough to rule out dropping the matter and presuming there is no threat. As has been suggested, you should locate a board certified avian veterinarian and schedule an appointment for a professional and competent assessment of Ruby. I think you really need a second opinion from someone who is well qualified.

Thanks I was just upset, I don't like it when people question my parenting skills and so forth. My daughter is perfectly fine. If it weren't for my faith and me taking a stand she wouldn't even be here, and I'm not ashamed to say that. I know in my heart Ruby is okay, I keep her away from my child, so I don't want my daughter in this. My daughter is safe.

kendrafitz
02-20-2016, 06:03 PM
I agree with everyone. If I were you I would absolutely find an avian vet.

This vet was not comfortable with your bird, dropped her, caused Ruby and you undue stress by making you wait hours. The testing was just odd. Meaning I would think there would be 2 swabs and put right in containers. However, I am not a vet. Also don't like that you can't speak with his associates.

kendrafitz
02-20-2016, 06:15 PM
I also wanted to throw my 2 cents in about her having parrot fever. This is no judgment. Just me relaying something I observed on a forum.

There was a man who had two green wings. He adored them. They seemed perfectly healthy and he posted videos of them all the time.

Here is the thing about parrots that I didn't know. They hide any symptoms they have. As prey birds there is no other alternative. They act healthy until it is impossible for them to otherwise.

Ok, so back to the man. He suddenly stopped posting. After a while his wife let the forum know the GWs passed of psittacosis. Her husband, who was fairly healthy as far as I knew seemed to have contacted it from the birds. It was a disaster. He went from a healthy man to someone that couldn't even feed himself.

So I will say this. If it was me, I would get another opinion. Even if I believed in my heart and soul my parrot was healthy. Just to be safe. For you, your husband, your daughter and you beloved pets. I only feel this way bc I saw what can happen. It can be tragic.

All that said I know you are a good parent and will do what you believe is best.

Just thought I would share my thoughts on it.

Sending you lots of good thoughts!

Bird Mom
02-20-2016, 06:32 PM
I also wanted to throw my 2 cents in about her having parrot fever. This is no judgment. Just me relaying something I observed on a forum.

There was a man who had two green wings. He adored them. They seemed perfectly healthy and he posted videos of them all the time.

Here is the thing about parrots that I didn't know. They hide any symptoms they have. As prey birds there is no other alternative. They act healthy until it is impossible for them to otherwise.

Ok, so back to the man. He suddenly stopped posting. After a while his wife let the forum know the GWs passed of psittacosis. Her husband, who was fairly healthy as far as I knew seemed to have contacted it from the birds. It was a disaster. He went from a healthy man to someone that couldn't even feed himself.

So I will say this. If it was me, I would get another opinion. Even if I believed in my heart and soul my parrot was healthy. Just to be safe. For you, your husband, your daughter and you beloved pets. I only feel this way bc I saw what can happen. It can be tragic.

All that said I know you are a good parent and will do what you believe is best.

Just thought I would share my thoughts on it.

Sending you lots of good thoughts!

That is so sad! Years ago I had 3 cockatiels and 3 parakeets. They seemed COMPLETELY healthy. Normal behaviour, eating, drinking, normal droppings. I woke up one morning and all but one cockatiel had died. It was so horrible. She ended up passing the next day. I had NO idea they were even sick. They can hide illness so well.

PlaxMacaws
02-20-2016, 06:32 PM
ABVP-avian certified vets in NC and VA:

3744
3743

The ABVP search URL is: [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]

BirdWhisperer
02-20-2016, 07:01 PM
Thank you for all the info I will check out other areas and vets on that list.

I talked to my uncle and he is a very smart man he has graduated college, he is highly intelligent and even he thinks we were had... aka a money racket. My husband also has a masters degree and he finds it laughable. I just don't have any faith in vets or animal doctors, heck I don't even have faith in real doctors or nurses. I think it's all a money racket because since day one that we went there they were trying to gauge us for more unnecessary tests and even trying to sell us their food for birds and so forth. They wanted to know what all animals I had indoors and outdoors, I am no longer worried about Ruby having this illness it's extremely rare.

I am sorry about other people who have lost their birds to sickness I know how hard it is to worry, to be afraid, and to deal with losing an animal. I won't lose ruby, especially to some money grubbing troll.

Come on any vet that would tell someone they didn't want them calling or speaking to the other doctors has something to hide, it's just not normal! Also what fool would place a swab that was inserted into my birds hind-end on the exam table! That would definitely not only contaminate the table, but also the swab! I am not the brightest light in the hallway but I even know that! I may have tourrettes and so forth, but I am not a daggon moron! I am getting frustrated at these money grubbers! Too many people blindly trust these incompetent fools without even researching, I admit I was a fool to ever bring ruby there!

PS. I know birds can hide illnesses, but doctors can also falsify claims for money! It has happened before, and the reviews for that place are hideous! :/

PlaxMacaws
02-20-2016, 08:47 PM
Kristin:

For what it's worth, I'm going to state my overall opinion below...

1. Ruby may not be infected, as you believe. But you cannot know for certain without competent professional evaluation.

2. The purported lab test result of a presence of antibodies may be attributable to any of the following: a) Misinterpretation of samples by lab personnel, b) A mix-up of result figures, or c) Willful falsification by clinic personnel not consistent with actual lab findings. Notes: I understand that you suspect "c". You have probably already considered this, but I'll say it anyway... It could only have been "c" if the vet and his staff have planned to report to you later that Ruby is clear. And that's because when a disease like psittacosis (i.e., a serious, rarely occurring, very contagious one) is conclusively detected in a pet, the fact must be reported to government health authorities. Those health authorities would in turn perform their own investigations and testing. For their own good, a veterinary clinic's staff members who were prone toward falsification for profit could never allow such a false claim scenario to reach that point. If they did, they may easily find themselves in legal jeopardy and would stand to lose their ability to remain in business and may even be liable for a sizable civil suit. So the only possibility for "c" in this case is if the vet and his staff planned to 'milk' the situation to the last moment and then tell you Ruby is fine (just before they would need to report the case to authorities).

3. It just makes logical sense to get a competent medical assessment for Ruby instead of assuming - even if your theory ends up being correct! I know you said you are working on locating an adequate vet, which is great :)

4. There is no question that you witnessed some entirely unacceptable and potentially dangerous practices during the sample gathering events at the clinic. Once you learn Ruby's conclusive medical status, you may wish to pursue those sloppy and unhealthy practices. You can certainly report the vet and his clinic to the state's veterinary board.

So while I'm not saying your theory is wrong, Kristin, I'm saying that with the evidence as it stands we can't know for certain that Ruby is clear. She may well be clear, and I sincerely hope that she is. But testing by a qualified veterinarian and lab is the only way to truly gain that peace of mind. As you know, I've had some personal experience dealing with incompetent and dishonest veterinarians. Based upon that experience and my assessment of your case details, I just wanted to share my perspective with you.

BirdWhisperer
02-20-2016, 08:59 PM
Kristin:

For what it's worth, I'm going to state my overall opinion below...

1. Ruby may not be infected, as you believe. But you cannot know for certain without competent professional evaluation.

2. The purported lab test result of a presence of antibodies may be attributable to any of the following: a) Misinterpretation of samples by lab personnel, b) A mix-up of result figures, or c) Willful falsification by clinic personnel not consistent with actual lab findings. Notes: I understand that you suspect "c". You have probably already considered this, but I'll say it anyway... It could only have been "c" if the vet and his staff have planned to report to you later that Ruby is clear. And that's because when a disease like psittacosis (i.e., a serious, rarely occurring, very contagious one) is conclusively detected in a pet, the fact must be reported to government health authorities. Those health authorities would in turn perform their own investigations and testing. For their own good, a veterinary clinic's staff members who were prone toward falsification for profit could never allow such a false claim scenario to reach that point. If they did, they may easily find themselves in legal jeopardy and would stand to lose their ability to remain in business and may even be liable for a sizable civil suit. So the only possibility for "c" in this case is if the vet and his staff planned to 'milk' the situation to the last moment and then tell you Ruby is fine (just before they would need to report the case to authorities).

3. It just makes logical sense to get a competent medical assessment for Ruby instead of assuming - even if your theory ends up being correct! I know you said you are working on locating an adequate vet, which is great :)

4. There is no question that you witnessed some entirely unacceptable and potentially dangerous practices during the sample gathering events at the clinic. Once you learn Ruby's conclusive medical status, you may wish to pursue those sloppy and unhealthy practices. You can certainly report the vet and his clinic to the state's veterinary board.

So while I'm not saying your theory is wrong, Kristin, I'm saying that with the evidence as it stands we can't know for certain that Ruby is clear. She may well be clear, and I sincerely hope that she is. But testing by a qualified veterinarian and lab is the only way to truly gain that peace of mind. As you know, I've had some personal experience dealing with incompetent and dishonest veterinarians. Based upon that experience and my assessment of your case details, I just wanted to share my perspective with you.

I definitely agree, thankfully if it's C they will back off.

PlaxMacaws
02-20-2016, 09:30 PM
Kristin: Here's another thought. Why not request a copy of the lab report from the vet? Then you can contact the lab itself to confirm or deny that it's a genuine account of the record.

BirdWhisperer
02-20-2016, 09:35 PM
Kristin: Here's another thought. Why not request a copy of the lab report from the vet? Then you can contact the lab itself to confirm or deny that it's a genuine account of the record.

It might work, but if they tampered with the sample than it wouldn't matter. I doubt I will trust anything they say at this point, Afterall they did use the same swab for Rubys mouth on her bottom and laid it on the table.

PlaxMacaws
02-20-2016, 09:46 PM
It might work, but if they tampered with the sample than it wouldn't matter. I doubt I will trust anything they say at this point, Afterall they did use the same swab for Rubys mouth on her bottom and laid it on the table.My best guess is that fraudulently introducing antibodies for a specific pathogen is well beyond the capability of a vet who would run such a sloppy sample attainment operation ;)

Camelotshadow
02-20-2016, 10:42 PM
I did some research & it seems that the routine test for parrot fever is a blood test so not sure why they are doing swab cultures.
I am not a vet & it is good you are asking questions here but I think I would go back to the vet to voice your concerns about how the tests
were performed with the same swab & ask that they explain tests & the procedures better.

PlaxMacaws
02-20-2016, 11:35 PM
I did some research & it seems that the common test for parrot fever is a blood test so not sure why they are doing swab cultures.
I am not a vet & it is good you are asking questions here but I think I would go back to the vet to voice your concerns about how the tests
were performed with the same swab & ask that they explain tests & the procedures better.Well, yes, my information is the detection of antibodies is achieved with a blood assessment technique known as an antibody titer test. However, I believe that a cloacal swab culture is a common method to detect an active psittacosis infection. I am not a vet either.

BirdWhisperer
02-21-2016, 12:29 AM
She had her blood taken as well. I'm not saying they forged the antibodies but I think they're bsing me for money I absolutely do.

PlaxMacaws
02-21-2016, 01:50 AM
She had her blood taken as well. I'm not saying they forged the antibodies but I think they're bsing me for money I absolutely do.Well then if the antibody presence was actually detected (or believed to be detected) by the lab, there is certainly cause for determining whether that record of detection is a false positive. And it follows that in order to determine such you will need to learn whether the lab actually believes that they detected the antibodies. So the starting point for you should be to obtain the lab report from the vet for comparison with the lab's actual record.

Karen
02-21-2016, 02:34 AM
I did some research & it seems that the common test for parrot fever is a blood test so not sure why they are doing swab cultures.
I am not a vet & it is good you are asking questions here but I think I would go back to the vet to voice your concerns about how the tests
were performed with the same swab & ask that they explain tests & the procedures better.

Per this site: [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]

Diagnosis of psittacosis is generally based on more than one test or kind of test. In the live bird, in addition to routine blood tests and x-rays, a choanal or cloacal swab may be taken for a DNA or "PCR" test.

A negative swab (antigen) test means that the bird was not shedding at the time. Infected birds can shed intermittently.

Karen
02-21-2016, 02:42 AM
She had her blood taken as well. I'm not saying they forged the antibodies but I think they're bsing me for money I absolutely do.

No doubt, there are vets that will upcharge. But with something as serious and Psittacosis this is not something that anyone is going to play games with. This involves the government and a possible health threat; there are strict policies and procedures in place that have to be followed. I guarantee the vet as well as the lab are taking this serious and are crossing their t's and dotting their i's

Camelotshadow
02-21-2016, 04:32 AM
Per this site: [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]

Diagnosis of psittacosis is generally based on more than one test or kind of test. In the live bird, in addition to routine blood tests and x-rays, a choanal or cloacal swab may be taken for a DNA or "PCR" test.

A negative swab (antigen) test means that the bird was not shedding at the time. Infected birds can shed intermittently.



Great site. Best one that I've seen but I only researched for about 10 minutes. Site also seems to suggest that a swab be used for mouth & vent. It seems to suggest that perhaps only one test is needed on a sample from mouth & cloaca?

"One is a PCR test that looks for the DNA of the bacteria Chlamydophila psittaci, which causes psittacosis. This test is typically performed on a blood sample,
but may also be performed with a swab taken from your bird’s mouth and vent. "


Veterinarians go thru many years of specialized training. Its much harder to get into vet school than it is to get into med school.
I know as one time I wanted to be a vet. Most people go to vet school as they want to help animals.
I don't think many would want to jeopardize there career & vet license over the income from falsifying such a lab test .

I still don't think laying a swab down on a table was good medical procedure but otherwise perhaps the sample was obtained as it should be.
I do feel better about the sample & hopefully it will come back negative & be a valid test. I'd hate to gamble with the welfare of ones loved ones.

LunaLovebird
02-21-2016, 02:06 PM
Honestly, I don't know that I'd bother waiting for what they have to say about the results. They sound incompetent. I would, however, find an avian vet and take Ruby there straight away for tests. I know you feel that she is fine, but birds are exceptionally good at hiding this sort of thing. It's much better to be safe now than sorry later in these matters. As well, unless you are changing your clothes and showering between coming into contact with Ruby and your other birds or daughter, you could still be acting as a conduit for any illnesses.

As for whether your vet doctored the results - it seems unlikely. As has been mentioned, you should be able to locate and contact the lab that ran the tests to confirm their validity. I know you think that the vet still could have altered the samples, but this is quite unlikely. Besides the difficulty of being able to purchase antibodies from a supplier, they are expensive. Certainly more costly than your vet fee.

BirdWhisperer
02-22-2016, 03:57 PM
Honestly, I don't know that I'd bother waiting for what they have to say about the results. They sound incompetent. I would, however, find an avian vet and take Ruby there straight away for tests. I know you feel that she is fine, but birds are exceptionally good at hiding this sort of thing. It's much better to be safe now than sorry later in these matters. As well, unless you are changing your clothes and showering between coming into contact with Ruby and your other birds or daughter, you could still be acting as a conduit for any illnesses.

As for whether your vet doctored the results - it seems unlikely. As has been mentioned, you should be able to locate and contact the lab that ran the tests to confirm their validity. I know you think that the vet still could have altered the samples, but this is quite unlikely. Besides the difficulty of being able to purchase antibodies from a supplier, they are expensive. Certainly more costly than your vet fee.

He may have never sent the results in though, me and my husband are not the only ones thinking we got the shaft. The first vet bill was over $300, the second vet bill just for the "confirmation" was like $200. That is over $500, so do I think for that kind of money someone could do some funny business? Absolutely! I have no proof that he even sent those tests in! They gave me NO documentation! and when I even ask about it they say to speak to dr hulls only, they don't want me bothering any other doctor. Period.

I will stand by faith and say no parrot fever will come near my dwelling. We don't take vaccines here, we load up on vitamins and we rarely get sick, we have never had any flus here.

PlaxMacaws
02-22-2016, 04:20 PM
He may have never sent the results in though, me and my husband are not the only ones thinking we got the shaft. The first vet bill was over $300, the second vet bill just for the "confirmation" was like $200. That is over $500, so do I think for that kind of money someone could do some funny business? Absolutely! I have no proof that he even sent those tests in! They gave me NO documentation! and when I even ask about it they say to speak to dr hulls only, they don't want me bothering any other doctor. Period.That's precisely why you need to go to the clinic and demand a copy of the lab report. If they refuse to furnish it to you, then demand the name and location of the lab so you can contact them directly. That's how you can prove whether the samples were sent, whether the testing was done, and what the actual findings in fact were. If you don't do this you are simply out the money that you paid to the clinic, you will have no legal recourse, and you will have no scientific data about Ruby's health status :(. If that vet is unavailable, demand to speak with any vet who is there and don't leave until you've done so!

spiritbird
02-22-2016, 04:54 PM
I agree with you Tony. I always ask for a copy of lab reports from a vet or a human physician. Usually get them too. for $500 they should be cooperating.

Karen
02-22-2016, 10:17 PM
He may have never sent the results in though, me and my husband are not the only ones thinking we got the shaft. The first vet bill was over $300, the second vet bill just for the "confirmation" was like $200. That is over $500, so do I think for that kind of money someone could do some funny business? Absolutely! I have no proof that he even sent those tests in! They gave me NO documentation! and when I even ask about it they say to speak to dr hulls only, they don't want me bothering any other doctor. Period.

I will stand by faith and say no parrot fever will come near my dwelling. We don't take vaccines here, we load up on vitamins and we rarely get sick, we have never had any flus here.

I've probably missed some posts or a thread about this because I can't figure out why you're so suspicious that this vet is doing something wrong with your tests, ie: contaminating them, not sending them into the lab, etc.? What has the vet done? Where I live $500 for 2 vet visits is cheap! Do you not want to speak with Dr. Hulls?

PlaxMacaws
02-23-2016, 07:44 AM
Well, if this thread isn't controversial, I don't know what is. The various views voiced herein seem to be:

1. Don't be so hard on the vet and his staff. Their actions may have been justified and the fees actually appear somewhat reasonable.

2. The sample collection procedures were sloppy and perhaps even dangerous. Get away from that clinic and its staff, and do it quickly! Have Ruby reassessed by a competent professional.

3. The vet and his staff are entirely incompetent but I doubt their was deception or greed involved. You should probably find a more qualified vet and have Ruby reassessed.

4. The vet and his staff are entirely incompetent and have clearly made effort to gouge funds unnecessarily through deceptive conduct. They are behaving as criminal conspirators and cannot be trusted on any level! I know Ruby is not ill because the disease in question is rare, she seems fine, and I have a good feeling in my heart about her health.

5. The vet and his staff are seemingly not careful or skilled individuals and thus may be a poor choice to have any role in Ruby's health concerns. They may be untrustworthy to a point, but that hasn't been proven (i.e., incontrovertible evidence has yet to be established). It's possible there is some gouging at play, or at the very least some intent in that direction... but lets face it, the jury is still out. And even if some greed and a few unnecessary charges are involved, it doesn't mean that the lab work was not performed and that the lab report was falsified by clinic personnel. Quite frankly, the conspiracy-for-profit angle doesn't seem terribly viable considering the seriousness of the illness in question, the meager profit amount that would be rendered from deception, and especially, the fact that the vet could easily ruin his career and lose his livelihood from such deliberate foul play in the face of that very serious potential diagnosis. Therefore, I say jettison that particular vet and clinic. But do so purely because of the incompetence demonstrated during the examination/sample gathering process. And I'm going to as well emphasize that you should absolutely not accuse anyone without first obtaining cogent proof of guilt. I think you would do well to go investigate/collect any available evidence while there's still time. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, take Ruby to a qualified avian veterinarian as soon as possible so a reassessment can get underway!

So which of the above views do you think is mine? :eagerness:

wingman
02-23-2016, 11:40 AM
2
I will say 2

LunaLovebird
02-23-2016, 12:31 PM
He may have never sent the results in though, me and my husband are not the only ones thinking we got the shaft. The first vet bill was over $300, the second vet bill just for the "confirmation" was like $200. That is over $500, so do I think for that kind of money someone could do some funny business? Absolutely! I have no proof that he even sent those tests in! They gave me NO documentation! and when I even ask about it they say to speak to dr hulls only, they don't want me bothering any other doctor. Period.

I will stand by faith and say no parrot fever will come near my dwelling. We don't take vaccines here, we load up on vitamins and we rarely get sick, we have never had any flus here.

As others have mentioned, you should be able to find out if they were sent. Demand the documentation. Call the lab involved. Until you do that, you're just speculating and making baseless accusations.

Unless you have magic eye sight or precognitive abilities (you don't), you have absolutely no way to know for sure that your birds are not carrying parrot fever. You owe it to them to have an avian vet assess them properly. Please, for their sake have this done, and have it done as soon as possible.

BirdWhisperer
02-23-2016, 04:22 PM
Well, if this thread isn't controversial, I don't know what is. The various views voiced herein seem to be:

1. Don't be so hard on the vet and his staff. Their actions may have been justified and the fees actually appear somewhat reasonable.

2. The sample collection procedures were sloppy and perhaps even dangerous. Get away from that clinic and its staff, and do it quickly! Have Ruby reassessed by a competent professional.

3. The vet and his staff are entirely incompetent but I doubt their was deception or greed involved. You should probably find a more qualified vet and have Ruby reassessed.

4. The vet and his staff are entirely incompetent and have clearly made effort to gouge funds unnecessarily through deceptive conduct. They are behaving as criminal conspirators and cannot be trusted on any level! I know Ruby is not ill because the disease in question is rare, she seems fine, and I have a good feeling in my heart about her health.

5. The vet and his staff are seemingly not careful or skilled individuals and thus may be a poor choice to have any role in Ruby's health concerns. They may be untrustworthy to a point, but that hasn't been proven (i.e., incontrovertible evidence has yet to be established). It's possible there is some gouging at play, or at the very least some intent in that direction... but lets face it, the jury is still out. And even if some greed and a few unnecessary charges are involved, it doesn't mean that the lab work was not performed and that the lab report was falsified by clinic personnel. Quite frankly, the conspiracy-for-profit angle doesn't seem terribly viable considering the seriousness of the illness in question, the meager profit amount that would be rendered from deception, and especially, the fact that the vet could easily ruin his career and lose his livelihood from such deliberate foul play in the face of that very serious potential diagnosis. Therefore, I say jettison that particular vet and clinic. But do so purely because of the incompetence demonstrated during the examination/sample gathering process. And I'm going to as well emphasize that you should absolutely not accuse anyone without first obtaining cogent proof of guilt. I think you would do well to go investigate/collect any available evidence while there's still time. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, take Ruby to a qualified avian veterinarian as soon as possible so a reassessment can get underway!

So which of the above views do you think is mine? :eagerness:

I'm 4. Period, nobody was there, I was there I know how they acted.

BirdWhisperer
02-23-2016, 07:48 PM
I'm not here to debate I asked opinions and I got varying opinions. In the beginning I was worried, now I'm not. Ruby is fine.
She does not have this extremely rare disease.

plax
02-23-2016, 08:12 PM
At the request of the OP, this topic is now locked.