Stirred the pot today...as it were

[Cedardave]

In Canada we have a free classified site...kijijji.Anyone is able to advertise or post wanted ads on there.Today between people posting wanting Amazon parrots,African parrots or any type of macaw and are willing to pay as much as $400( here they start at $1500 for a grey and thousands for macaws) for them pushed me to the brink.We as breeders of these birds have also been inundated with people wanting these exotic birds as Christmas gifts.I will not sell any birds in the month of December as I feel there is a poor track record as to the reason people buy during the season.So today I posted on kijiji a rant to those looking for really low priced birds and those looking for Christmas gift birds.To my friends here at precisely parrots...I wish you all the best of whatever season you may celebrate. And may you and yours stay away from turning a bird into a lifetime commitment as a gift.
End of rant
Cheers

[Mare]

Dave, I know you have a huge heart..but what are you doing breeding birds when there are so many in rescues..? Breaks my heart. I understand that exotics aren't as available as say,,finches,,but still. Birds are birds, birds were born with wings for a reason and that reason wasn't to be encapsulated in our little domain! :) happy face..

Sorry..I'm a nomad warrior. Gonna have to deal with my questions :)

[spiritbird]

I do understand your rant and I am sure many so called gift birds are not really going to be cared for as they should be. Since I am of the belief that pet stores should not sell live pets at all, including fish, we need responsible breeders in the bird world. By responsible I mean customer education and follow up written in the sales contract. I also think bird breeding should be limited by the state or province to only a certain number. So this is my rant. Just like finding a human mate is often very difficult, the purchase of a bird should not be so easy.

[Cedardave]

Mare, to your question specifically why do we breed birds.Well in most of Canada there are no such things as rescues per say.We have an avian welfare coalition that will take in abandoned or troubled birds...but they are often no longer in any condition to be a pet.The humane society will occasionally have a bird, but rarely.The birds we do breed are sold as pets with screening as best as possible with the perspective new family.Ongoing support for as long as the family needs.As part of our contract we require if the bird is to be re homed anytime in its life they are contractually obligated to surrender the bird back to us.We don't want anyone to have to take care of birds we created at a shelter....of which there are none.There is a demand from good people wanting these birds.Imagine yourself wanting your first brid but absolutely no one anywhere sells them.I suspect if we were located in a country where rescues were available we likely would never have started our breeding program.I can assure you though, all our birds get the best foods available and although the love and attention is spread out its a full time job from sun up to sunset and beyond.Non of our birds ever do without a clean environment , and tons of attention.While I understand your point of view completely...I hope you can also understand mine.And thanks for your concern...more people need to express their opinions so they can get the information instead of just judging someone

[Casper's 2nd best friend]

I am so glad that there are others with the same concerns as me. Here is my point of view:
Casper came to us because the lady who had him from birth (my mother) wanted a parrot because her friend had one and she wanted to "keep up with the Joneses". She was in her mid fifties at the time and had not considered the future of the poor creature. At seventy she had a stroke and became invalid, the parrot was left in a cage in the corner of the kitchen with just a bell to play with. He was taunted by my father who was a cruel man and didn't like the parrot. Ten years later my father died and my mother has had to go into a care home.
We tried to find someone to care for the parrot but eventually he made it known that he wanted to be with my wife Margaret. So... he came to live with us, and after a year he realised that I was not like my father and we became friends. We, in turn, had to totally rethink our lives - the yacht we had just bought cannot now be used for the long European holidays that we had planned.
But... what happens when we are too old to act as his guardian?
This is why I don't think it is sensible for long lived parrots to be part of the pet trade. Yes they are cute and lovable but it is not fair on the poor creatures. They are wild animals and should be in the wild.
I hope CedarDave that you only sell to young couples and make them aware that they are making a fifty year commitment. If they are out at work all day then that is totally wrong for the poor creature.
My comments mainly apply to solo birds as their custodians are their flock (the term owners gives the wrong focus).
Sorry to give you a hard time but that is how I feel. I applaud your actions on "a parrot is for life, not just for Christmas".

[Cedardave]

A couple more points I wanted to make.Please understand what I am saying isn't ment to be confrontational to anyone.In our area we are the only breeder of several types of birds in 3 provinces.We screen our potential new families to be sure they are aware of what is involved in the birds care and what they can expect both positive and negative.We require should one of our birds sold become unwanted they must be surrendered back to us so as not to have them becoming bounced from owner to owner...this is by a signed contract.To date we have had none returned and we are in touch regularly with those that have our little ones.We offer continuous support to the families.We have in the past travelled several provinces away in order to rescue birds that were soon to be put down because the owners had no where to send them.Often these birds are in need of lots of help.I suppose everyone has a particular passion in their lives...this is ours and we are very proud of the lengths we have and continue to go to for the well being of these creatures.In a perfect world all animals would be free to fly, run roam and live their lives in their natural habitats.Since we people have a need to house some creatures as pets/companions, I think it becomes our responsibility to be sure we enrich their lives so they become an important part of a family.I realize everyone has their opinion on breeders...there are good ones and there are bad ones.There are many in it for the money and that's it.Large scale breeding that only clogs up rescues really is just a tragic circle that I also believe is tragic.We are a very small scale home based family run breeder.No rescues anywhere here...just a couple sanctuaries a few provinces away.In my opinion we are responsible breeders.Small scale....but very responsible.

[Mare]

Dave, I didn't mean to sound like I was judging you, I strive to be non-judgemental in my life, what I said was just my rant. Looks like you are doing a great job with your birds, not something I could ever do only because I have different beliefs.

[jtbirds]

I still hold true to the fact that breeding is never a good choice no matter the demand for it or not. Breeding birds or any animals always boils down to human greed and more then likely pushing an animal into a situation it may not want to partake in but can be forced into. Over the years I have become less aggressive towards breeding birds and so on, but my point doesn't change a demand doesn't need to be fulfilled at the sacrifices for someone else's happiness to only satisfy someone else's lust for money. I know a lot of breeders say O I do it to preserve the breeds, but sadly everything we do has more then one meaning. Yes that does mean me as a rescue I don't just do it to help the birds, I do it to help myself, others, etc etc.. One can easily be lost in what they are truly trying to help and I will easily admit that as anyone that will not is not a balanced.

I do not like people going on about how these animals shouldn't be here and so on.. the fact is no they shouldn't but sadly someones greed has brought them here and we can only do whats best now. That doesn't mean trying to take pet birds and revert them into a life they will never understand fully. So I know both sides of the arguement, but when I am sitting here listening to a bird scream abusive phrases and or is plucked or is so fearful of people because of being abused. I always think back to that one person breeder or not that thought O what I am doing is only helping this animal. Sadly most people that bring there birds to me Come telling me they bought it from a breeder or pet store and wasn't informed and now has created an issue or has been the birds 12th home. I would rather not see a demand filled only to destroy something else invaluable. I know everyone breeders and rescues alike are only doing what they think are best, but sometimes ya gotta watch how ya do it. I am not ranting or directing this towards anyone, I am just adding to this with my feelings hopefully they don't offend anyone.

[Mare]

You've offended me, greatly! Seriously, though, the rescues must see the dregs of everyone's poor decisions.

[jtbirds]

We do yes, and I usually carry that weight and try not to pass it on, passing on negative energy is never good! I prefer to meditate it out of my thoughts and never pass it on haha:).

[Mare]

[That doesn't mean trying to take pet birds and revert them into a life they will never understand fully.]

That hit a bit of a nerve with me, Justin. Amigo flying had nothing to do with trying to revert him, it was just trying to give him a good life, an acceptable life. I think we all, (here on this forum, anyways), want the best for our birds.

[plax]

Everyone who has contributed thoughts on this topic has made some good points. A few of those points seem to oppose one another for one or more significant reasons, albeit. And that makes it rather difficult (for me at least) to hold a concrete view concerning justifications for breeding companion parrots.

Here's what I think. The unwanted/homeless bird explosion is an effect of human greed in conjunction with human impulsivity. It has resulted in a global tragedy which is disturbingly permanent. The result of this phenomenon is that many birds have suffered unimaginable horrors. So sadly, many of them have perished well before their time... and I can tell you that many more will follow suit for years and years to come. Pet stores, especially those chain stores owned by corporations, are at grave fault for contributing hugely to this very disturbing issue. Any breeders who are mass-producing birds (effectively bird mills) are enormously responsible for perpetuating this terrible problem as well. There are, however, low-yield breeders who hold the best of intentions (as far as their breeding practices and their health and safety perspective) and who arguably follow respectable guidelines. I can personally think of valid arguments for and against the latter. Then, of course, the necessity for human assistance in the perpetuation of various endangered species is quite an important factor. One question that comes to mind is: Are those protected/endangered species breeding programs facilitated by national and international organizations enough to preserve the species they're focused upon? I don't know the accurate answer to that question, but I would guess they are not enough.

I probably shouldn't say more than what I've just stated at this point... simply because I'm not able to step to one side or the other and tell myself, "this is the right view to hold!" In terms of the best approach for those low-yield breeders who have genuine concern and integrity, I don't feel that it's an easy situation to assess with any measure of accuracy. Can we feel confident to say: "Whether or not you should continue breeding birds should be determined by how endangered the species you breed happens to be and how successful you have been at producing viable offspring of that species." I'm not sure that we can. It's truly a dilemma.

[kendrafitz]

Agreed Mare. I believe all the people here do want what's best for our birds.

I didn't take what Justin said as aimed towards Amigo. I thought of the dopes that say you should just let the birds fly away and be on their own outside. Which is basically a death sentence for pet birds.

What you do with Amigo is what you have learned together is best for him. He is a happy and very lucky guy. I know some people have given you a hard time in the past, but you are doing what is best for your guy and he is grateful for it.

[Mare]

Tony, you are the most diplomatic person I've ever come into, (kinda), close contact with! Thanks, Kendra. I'm done with folks giving me a hard time about Amigo but still sensitive.

[Cedardave]

Well...I suppose if nothing else, my post put some activity on the board.I find it very interesting how diverse the opinions of our members are.While the opinions dont change my opinion, I do respect and appreciate the passion you all hold for the welfare of these birds.I suppose none of us would be on a board like this if we werent passionate about our feelings toward our companions.So I would ,without laying judgement on any of you, like to thank you for your thoughts.

[jtbirds]

Mare my comment was not even closely directed to amigo, My post was more becoming of a different point. I have a blue throated macaw who was raised in captivity, I have had one or more people belittle me because I wouldn't sell him off to be breed and put back in the wild. The bird does not know anything about wild life and I don't think it is fair for those people to attack me for having him as my companion.

What you do with Amigo has its risks and you very well know them, you also took those risks and have given him a better life then most cockatoos will ever get. Never think I would belittle your Amigo. I've told you before long ago yes, but before your amazing:).

[Mare]

Dave, I got clobbered on a different forum for doing what I do with Amigo, so, still a touchy subject :).

[plax]

Tony, you are the most diplomatic person I've ever come into, (kinda), close contact with!I can think of a few people who may disagree with you on that, Mare ;)

[jtbirds]

Mare the best thing to do, is do what works for you with that boy. That same group of people shaming you is probably the same group that would have no idea what to do with a cockatoo that has a past. A cockatoo that wasn't ever taught right or socialized or even handled right is by far in my book the most dangerous bird you will come in contact with. I've myself been bitten the worst by cockatoos and have had friends get the same path.

Long ago a bare eyed came into a rescue he was fine with me and I turnt around only to see him completely piercedsomeones bottom lip. He went from cold to hot in no time and it was how he was raised. Many more stories just like this, so once you find that happy medium stick to it:).

[Cedardave]

My initial thought on starting this post was to open a discussion on birds as Christmas gifts.I appologize it seems to have taken a turn on criticizing anyone's way of caring for their birds.Opinions are fine provided the hurtful ones are kept to ones self.Perhaps now might be a good time to consider closing this thread as my intent was not to judge anyone or have anyone judged for what they do in the best interest of their companion.While it's nice to hear opinions...it's not right when they become hurtful to any member of our group....

[plax]

My initial thought on starting this post was to open a discussion on birds as Christmas gifts.I appologize it seems to have taken a turn on criticizing anyone's way of caring for their birds.Opinions are fine provided the hurtful ones are kept to ones self.Perhaps now might be a good time to consider closing this thread as my intent was not to judge anyone or have anyone judged for what they do in the best interest of their companion.While it's nice to hear opinions...it's not right when they become hurtful to any member of our group....Hey Dave... I don't think anyone became too offended. I think your thread topic and all of the response dialog so far seem appropriate. My view is that it's good to discuss important issues that affect the welfare and health of companion birds. If we avoid or abandon topics like this then no progress occurs (learning, actions, opinion changes, etc.). I'm fine with your topic and I think you've explained your views quite well. It's easy to see that you're passionate about the birds you oversee.

[Mare]

Come on, Dave! Jump in! Get in the spirit! I know what you mean, though, I hate confrontation. I hate it until there is something I'm passionate about. After that...all bets are off!

[kendrafitz]

Dave, I agree with Tony. It's all good.

I agree with you about any animal as a gift horrible idea. Good for you for sticking to your beliefs and doing what is best for your guys.

[Casper's 2nd best friend]

I don't know if this needs a new thread (perhaps a mod will decide) but a question that has occurred to me after reading this thread and knowing that a lot of knowledgeable people are reading: Birds that escape from their Guardians, are they not happy there? We take Casper out on our shoulders and he makes no effort to fly away so presumably he feels safer or happier with us than going freelance. So should escaped birds be given back when they are recaptured?

[Mare]

I'd say, yes. Unless the owner was not a good one. Birds that escape have got to be scared to death out there! They probably don't take off because they want freedom, so much as fear, spooked. We are their flock and it would be a lonely world for them without us, let alone trying to find food and water.

Out little Sassy goffins girl is a real cling-on and I think because of this, she would be a great candidate for free flight, we are her world, BUT..she is a bit of a ding-a-ling and I would fear for her spooking and getting lost. Besides that, Amigo would chase her off.

[Casper's 2nd best friend]

Casper would also be a good candidate I think but needs to improve his landing skills.

I would also worry about the falcons that nest in the tower near us. One of them killed a pigeon/dove in our front garden.

[Mare]

The landing skills come with experience, trial and error :). Hawks can be a great concern, for sure!

[plax]

Free flight is NOT something that should be considered by viewers of this thread! Or at the very least, it should not be considered without serious and extensive research beforehand, as well as without adequate coaching by experts. Mare's Amigo is a special situation. His situation is not representative of companion parrot inclination, expectation, or environment. Please DO NOT attempt to duplicate his situation with your own pet bird(s)!

It is extremely easy to lose one's bird by allowing it unrestricted freedoms outdoors! One startle event can easily mark the last time you'll see your bird. Recall training should first always be implemented and ingrained in a bird before it's allowed to fly outside. Such training typically occurs inside of large enclosed buildings and may take a long while to complete. Repeated testing sessions within the indoor training environment (continuing for months or more) should be performed beforehand. Even then, there is no guarantee that you won't lose your bird once it has been introduced to freedom. The wisest decision is likely to avoid free flight for your bird(s) altogether.

For those who wish to discuss free flight in detail or by account, we have a section for that. Here is the link: [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]

Bottom line advice from Precisely Parrots to those browsing this thread: Please DO NOT take a chance by allowing your bird(s) freedom outdoors!

[Mare]

Tony, that is why I know I'm not moderator material :). So true, free flight, outdoors, is not something I would recommend to anyone. It takes a special bird that you KNOW, inside and out. It takes a special person to follow thru with the whole training ordeal. It's scary and thrilling, not safe and stupid,,but very rewarding for not just me but, Amigo.

[kendrafitz]

I agree with Mare. One day this summer I was bringing Rosie to her crate by the pool. Something startled her and after struggling with me she started flying. Fearing I would break her leg I foolishly let go. She flew higher than our 2 story house, hit a tree, bounced off it and wound up on our fence. It was one of the scariest moments of my life. A hawk spotted her and started flying overhead. My husband and daughter were walking back from a neighbors house, spotted her and started screaming to get her and quick bc there was a hawk. It was a mess. But to get back to topic. If she hadn't hit the tree she would have been gone. And terrified. Flukey things happen. So I think in most cases birds should be brought home.

[jtbirds]

I don't believe if they fly off it is because they are unhappy. Especially if a freak accident happens and they goto fly to protect themselves. Silly things happen and the bird is being instinctive is what I think. Now in other cases maybe, but that is hard to tell we arn't the bird haha!

[Lady]

Well my two cents agrees with Justin. I don't think they would fly away due to unhappiness but instinct.

[Casper's 2nd best friend]

Thanks for all your input. I still worry that some birds might jail break because they have not bonded and might be looking for a better person to be with. Otherwise why don't they return home when they are hungry? Casper seems to be able to judge people's character and reacts quite differently to different people who come to the house. There is one delivery driver who would love to be Casper's friend but Casper is having none of it and would attack if we let him. He gets quite excited when Suzie the postgirl calls though.
Edit: I guess what I am saying is that birds should choose their "owners" and not the other way around. That sort of gets us back on topic.

[Mare]

Jean-Pierre, I'm guessing the reason they don't return when they're hungry is, they don't know how. Teaching a bird to fly freely takes many, many hours of following that bird and teaching him where home is, where food and water are. A bird that takes off into the yonder gets lost very quickly. Unless he has you as his beacon, it could be hopeless.

Justin, I've been meaning to respond to your posts. I appreciate you clarifying and I know you are doing the best job you can,,which by the way, sounds like an amazing job!

[Casper's 2nd best friend]

hmm, not sure, I think there is some sort of navigation system in their brains, we recently took Casper to Devon in the car (a four hour drive), on the way home he suddenly perked up when we were about two miles from home as though he knew we were nearly there.