I Don't Know What to Do

[spiritbird]

[Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks] [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks] [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks] Chipper is having a relapse from the gastric yeast infection. He is falling off perches this time and could not get back up on the perch without my help. I have been reading several web pages about this disease. When a bird shows symptoms again and again it is not good. These web pages say it is a fatal disease because the bird suffers from malnutrition, no matter how much they eat. Medications are there but not always effective and the side effects are stressful to the bird. There is also pain associated with crop irritation and inflammation.

One vet said he has never had a bird survive this disease. It is usually a budgie but can hit other birds.
I have a call into my vet to talk to him again about Chipper's prognosis. I do not want him to go through "wasting".
He is so precious to me but to put him through all the treatment, blood draws, x rays and medication administration only to have him deteriorate is totally not a good quality of life. I really do not know what to do at this point.

One thought in my brain today, depending upon what the vet says, is to go with just the thyme tea for fluids and observe him carefully. If I think he is going down hill more that would be the time to take him to he vet. I am so sad today. If I had an unending supply of $$ for medical care he still may not survive. This is a bad, bad disease that not much is known about or treatments that really work to irradicate the fungus.

[Lady]

Oh Dianne
My heart and prayers go out for you both. This is such a difficult time. I can only wish that a miracle happens for Chip!

[Minamommy]

Dianne so so sorry. Sending many prayers and healing for your baby.


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[spiritbird]

It was mentioned to me by others that a treatment with Potassium Benzonate can be effective. It is a powder put in the water for a month. I am anxiously waiting for vet to call and I will ask him. thanks all for your well wishes.

[plax]

I'm so sorry to hear this, Dianne :(. I'm sure you know to keep sugars and starchy foods away from Chipper. Also, I realize that some controversy exists concerning the use of ACV in the water supply. But many avian vets support a regimen of ACV treated water for such yeast infections. And some folks treat their birds regularly with ACV as a preventative measure. Have you tried ACV yet at all? If not, it may be worth discussing with an avian vet. And by the way, I've used ACV treatments twice before with Zaf in response to budding yeast organisms presenting within his fecal gram stains.

[spiritbird]

Thanks Tony, I just got a small bottle of ACV and put 1.5 tsp. is each of their water cups. I am not sure about the ratios though because I read different amounts by people posting on forums. I think in the daytime I will give him the Thyme tea in water (Daisy) too. Just spent a few hours taking every potassium benzonate on amazon of all places. I have no idea if my vet will approve of this regime but sometimes you gotta take care of business by yourself.

[plax]

The vet's order for Zaf was 1 tsp per 16 oz. (2 cups) of water. So depending upon Chipper's water bowl size you may have the concentration a bit too high. Unless an avian vet instructs otherwise, I would consider reducing the concentration for now. And Chipper should likely be on the ACV for at least 2 weeks I would think. But please consult with your vet about that. Also, I would definitely ask your vet if there is any possibility for negative effects stemming from using those multiple treatment substances together during the same time frame. It's best to be as safe as possible.

[Minamommy]

Mina has had several yeast infections. What is this ACV. I remember he did say something about her failure to thrive and a malnutrition disease. He gave it a big name that's basically what it was. When I asked an AV on line she said he couldn't make that diagnosis without lab results and ultrasounds and several other studies. Dianne did your vet do some of these? Could it be mega yeast just not reacting to the antibiotic they are giving? I have heard doxycycline is sometimes needed. Sorry I don't mean to throw this at you but I was standing in your shoes a year ago I know it's terrifying. I guess I need to know what ACV is for the next time because vinegar in the water didn't do much. What is thyme tea as well?


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[plax]

Kim: ACV is Apple Cider Vinegar. And yeast is a fungal infection. Antibiotics typically will not eradicate fungal infections. Anti-fungals are generally required.

[plax]

Dianne: I did a bit of research and AGY (also called "MegeBacteria" despite that it's a yeast organism) is best treated with an antifungal drug called Amphotericin B. Here are 2 articles on AGY:

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[Mare]

I'm so sorry to hear about little Chipper, :(. I was also wondering what ACV was. I was thinking it was some kind of new drug! I do know that ACV is a wonderful thing for human's guts. I wish the best for Chipper :th_hug8:

[Macaw Lover]

With ACV you want to get it with the 'Mother', it will say it on the label. I think what they mean by the Mother is all that stuff floating around in the bottle.

While giving ACV you want to also give some yogurt with lactobacillus acidophilus in it which will put back the good bacteria a body needs to balance out the effects of the ACV.

[2birds]

So sorry to hear about Chipper being sick. I came across this article. I'm sure you have already read but maybe not. [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks] Good luck with Chipper Diane my thoughts are on a speedy recovery.

[spiritbird]

Update Wednesday: Tony Amphotericin B is used in many countries like Germany for fungal infections in people as well as animals. I am choosing not to give this to my birds due to potential toxicity. Talked with my vet last night and he recommended ACV at ratio of 2 tsp. per quart of water. The ph of the crop will decrease making the tissues less friendly to the fungi. The potassium benzonate is the sister to ACV, they both do the same thing. I ordered that from Amazon. My vet is looking up the dosage beause he was not familiar with this in avian medicine. Using the potassium is relatively new. Any holistic treatment will be long term. (several months) Daisy is showing signs of GYI also. Their worse time is in the mornings. Chipper just has the look of not feeling well but that seems to improve as the day progresses.
I am also using herbal preparations and sprouting TOPS seeds which are pretty good. Have fresh eucalyptus leaves hanging in the cage and when they dry i put them in a blender with other dried herbs, goji berries, pumpkin seeds and almonds and whatever else I deem fit for the mix. So I am choosing to go the holistic avenue and pray it is the correct decision. Oh and of course no foods that contain sugar which fungi love. Stopped feeding them corn on cob but they love it so.

[spiritbird]

Renee' with all the herbal support I am giving both budgies do I still need a flora replacement? My birds will not eat any soft foods, fruits or yogurt, sadly because I tried and tried to get them to eat the yogurt from a spoon like my grey and tiel did in the past. I will check in on that with my vet next time I chat with him. thanks for the suggestion. Is this the kind of mix you are talking about: [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]


Interesting article on bird specific probiotics. [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]

[spiritbird]

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Here is a video I took today of chipper in the bathroom where his mirror perch is. Sorry I do not know how to edit out the toilet paper. He says most of his words in the beginning and then just does Chipper talk. I heard him say a new word on the vid and was surprised he said SUPER Hope you can make it out. The feathers around his left eye are sticky from his spitting up that direction. I try to clean them but he fights me and I do not want to create any more stress in his life. Hope you enjoy

[plax]

How adorable :D. He's a great little talker and he has such a sweet voice. During the final few seconds it looks like Daisy decides to come in for a landing as if she were an F-15 ;) Thanks for sharing, Dianne!

[kendrafitz]

Great video. I love how well Chipper talks. I hope he is feeling much better soon!!

[2birds]

Wow, I knew budgies could talk but I didn't know they can talk that clear. What cute little guy

[Animalman2046]

Dianne I am so sorry you are going thru this. My heart breaks for you and Chipper. It sounds like you have done so much to help him. You have been given a lot of great advice here by others and especially Tony. I know you will do what is right to treat him and make him comfortable. Hugs and best wishes to you and little Chipper.

[spiritbird]

Thanks everyone. GYI is a nasty, fatal disease and I pray none of your birds will get it. Basically you can say Chipper is in "birdie hospice" with holistic support.

As a last effort I have made an appointment for a second opinion with a board certified avian holistic vet for Sept. 15th. Could not make it sooner for financial reasons.

[Macaw Lover]

Renee' with all the herbal support I am giving both budgies do I still need a flora replacement? My birds will not eat any soft foods, fruits or yogurt, sadly because I tried and tried to get them to eat the yogurt from a spoon like my grey and tiel did in the past. I will check in on that with my vet next time I chat with him. thanks for the suggestion. Is this the kind of mix you are talking about: [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]


Interesting article on bird specific probiotics. [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]

I wish I could answer that but I just don't know. I do know that when giving herbals you still have to be cautious because too many/much can have the bad affects also. A lot of people think a herb is 'safe' because it is natural but that is not always right. Herbs are natures medications and just like drugs you get from a doctor, there can be interactions that are not good.


On a lighter note, I thought it was normal for everyone to have a roll or two of toilet paper in the house, especially in a bathroom. With you being concerned about the toilet paper that was in the video, is this something that I should not be doing also???? :th_hehe: Ok, I will go hide in a corner now

I did not realize also how much these little ones can talk and so clearly too! My grandmother had a parakeet when I was little and I just remember his chirping and the time I put my hand in the cage to get the food bowl and he bit. I knew you had to watch out for them but he still got me which really was nothing. Maybe that is why I have don't have a total fear of the large beaks. Respect, yes and prefer my hands just how they are with no blood coming out of them.

[BeakFace]

Thanks Tony, I just got a small bottle of ACV and put 1.5 tsp. is each of their water cups. I am not sure about the ratios though because I read different amounts by people posting on forums. I think in the daytime I will give him the Thyme tea in water (Daisy) too. Just spent a few hours taking every potassium benzonate on amazon of all places. I have no idea if my vet will approve of this regime but sometimes you gotta take care of business by yourself.

That seems really very high amount. My Avian Vet said 1 tablespoon per quart. I was treating my daughters Cockatiel for yeast with this dosage. He said to do this every six weeks for 3-4 days for prevention. He said it's not a bad idea to do this for all my birds.

[Minamommy]

Chipper is so cute. I think it's great that your vet it working with you to go the holistic rout. Lol had no idea we were to the point of acronyming vinegar lol. I use mother apple cider vinegar for Mina too. I understand how you feel about amphotericin B we give that to people in the hospital. It pretty powerful stuff. I really didn't want to give it to Mina for 45-60 days. So I gave her nystatin for 15 then the vinegar. My fingers are crossed and I'm still praying for chipper. With your positive attitude he can overcome anything.


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[spiritbird]

Oh thanks so much for your input. I used to give Amphotericin B in the hospital too and we had to protect ourselves as well. You must wear gloves. According to my internet searches and reading many articles the Amphotericin B is still the gold standard in treating AGY infections in birds. I really cannot see how such a thick liquid can be given in such a little beak with Chipper fighting me all the way. It was hard just to get the Nystatin in his mouth without getting sticky feathers. I will be asking the avian consulting vet on the 15th about nebulized Amphotericin B at home if he thinks it is really needed. I also wonder if the ACV will alter the gram stains and wet mount for droppings.
So much is going on. I ordered herb salad for birds with an extra bag of dandelion greens because I read Thyme and dandelion are anti-fungal.

[Lady]

Just a thought... I use colloidal silver for myself on occasion, mostly for cuts and when I am feeling like a cold is coming on. Dianne have you ever heard of colloidal silver? I found a site that has information about using it for birds. I have not finished researching this information but thought maybe you might want to look into it as well.

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[Cedardave]

I'm sorry to hear this is going on.Since you are trying the holistic approach, may I recommend hemp seed or hemp oil.Do some research on it.The oil from the seed or the actual oil added to the food can help coat the affected areas until the body expels the toxins.We feed our birds hemp seed in with their daily feedings to maintain good health.Its not overly expensive either.I think we pay around a dollar a pound.Its available at many health or nutrition store.Hope it helps

[spiritbird]

Dave: I used to include hemp seeds in the bird food. I will re-think this. I am adding chia and unhulled sesame seeds now. Appreciate the feedback.

[Minamommy]

Lady I was using the colloidal Silver for Mina when she was having all of her troubles. I was talking to my sister who is a nurse practitioner and she said I should not give that to her it was most likely very dangerous. She said patients that take it have been poisoned by it so she couldn't imagine what it would do to a parrot. Dianne, I also just ordered herb salad from MSBS. I'm very excited to mix it into her food. Still sending lots of good energy and strength to your lovely Chipper.


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[spiritbird]

For the last couple of days Chipper is back to the AM vomiting and has sticky face feathers. Not a good sign. This Monday is our appointment with an AVet. I so don't want to put him though 30 days or so of twice a day antibiotics but it looks like there may be no choice. Thanks everyone for your valuable suggestions but I am waiting before adding anything else to his regimen until after the visit on Monday. In the meantime Chipper is out flying around with Daisy .

[plax]

For the last couple of days Chipper is back to the AM vomiting and has sticky face feathers. Not a good sign. This Monday is our appointment with an AVet. I so don't want to put him though 30 days or so of twice a day antibiotics but it looks like there may be no choice. Thanks everyone for your valuable suggestions but I am waiting before adding anything else to his regimen until after the visit on Monday. In the meantime Chipper is out flying around with Daisy .I'm sorry to hear this, Dianne :(. Maybe your vet will provide some encouraging insights. I certainly hope so. There's one thing that I have to ask... Are you absolutely sure that Chipper's matter ejection symptom is gastric vomiting and not hormonal regurgitation? I only ask this because Chipper seems so happy otherwise. He flies around with Daisy and cheerfully talks up a storm, which seem to indicate that he's feeling noticeably content (at certain times, anyway). Is he actually losing weight? And has he been continuing to fall from perches or other objects as you initially reported? If he is in fact suffering from AGY, my guess is that his weight has been diminishing and that he's becoming weaker from lack of nourishment :(. And how do his droppings currently look? I'm sure you've already assessed all of this, Dianne. But Chipper appears to have such a positive spirit... so I'm just asking to be sure (and hoping!). And FWIW, below is a page addressing regurgitation in Budgies:

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I'm hoping for the very best outcome from Chipper's vet visit on Monday. Please keep us posted.

[spiritbird]

Chipper tested posative for two crop swabs for yeast. That particular vet I did not like at all. She was seeing patients while my regular vet was on vacation. Of all things she used to open his beak was a paperclip and caused him to bleed. After the Nystatin he was clear for yeast but after a while he was vomiting again. His droppings were tested to be normal. He does not appear sick and I will find out if he is losing wt. Last wt. was 40 gms. but I would not swear that was accurate because of the way the tech did it. He does have a positive spirit and I pray that never goes away. So much depends on the AVets visit results on Monday.

[plax]

Chipper tested posative for two crop swabs for yeast. That particular vet I did not like at all. She was seeing patients while my regular vet was on vacation. Of all things she used to open his beak was a paperclip and caused him to bleed. After the Nystatin he was clear for yeast but after a while he was vomiting again. His droppings were tested to be normal. He does not appear sick and I will find out if he is losing wt. Last wt. was 40 gms. but I would not swear that was accurate because of the way the tech did it. He does have a positive spirit and I pray that never goes away. So much depends on the AVets visit results on Monday.Understood. Thanks for the explanation, Dianne. My thoughts will be with Chipper. I'm hoping the very best for the sweet little guy!

[Lady]

You and Chipper are in my thoughts. :th_hug8:

[spiritbird]

Thanks for your good wishes. If Chipper is clear and no yeast cells present then the ACV did the trick. Of course they can test clear of yeast and still have it which is a concern. He is fine this morning flying around with Daisy following as usual.

[spiritbird]

Chipper was examined by an avian vet that has been in business for over 30 years. He seemed to know his business. After he examined my Chipper and we discussed what had been done so far he suggested the only way to get rid of the yeast was amphotericin B. The other antibiotic suggested here on AA was Variconazole. This vet said it does not have a good enough track record yet. He does not prescribe this medication. I learned that amph. B is not absorbed systemically in the body so there will be no side effects. That was a load off my plate. He instructed me and demonstrated with Chipper the proper way to give medication by beak. I was not doing it the correct way. Amph. B has only a 14 day shelf life after being mixed for administration so tx. is for 30 days. One bottle cost me $15. so more will be needed. When amph. B is finished I wait 10 days and begin to collect droppings for 5 days for a PCR test. If the yeast is still active then plan on more amph. B mixed with Nystatin or potassium benzoate. Vet said the ACV was a waste of time and energy. Chipper weighed in at 52 gms. which is very good. So all in all it was a good visit.

[plax]

I'm very glad that Chipper's vet visit was productive and encouraging. It sounds to me that your vet has a handle on what's needed, and I've taken the meaning that Chipper's prognosis is fair to good if he's placed on a regimen of Amphotericin B. Please keep us updated!

[spiritbird]

Both birds are getting the anti fungal amphotericin B. Interesting the vet also said there is no need for a probiotic because this med. is not an antibiotic. I mistakenly called it antibiotic and it is not. Vet also stated the source is almost always the breeder. They might not even know about it since many birds carry yeast in the stomach and are asymptomatic.

[plax]

Both birds are getting the anti fungal amphotericin B. Interesting the vet also said there is no need for a probiotic because this med. is not an antibiotic. I mistakenly called it antibiotic and it is not.Yes, Amphotericin B is an anti-fungal medication. Antibiotics will not kill fungi. However, my understanding is that certain antibiotics are sometimes prescribed for fungal infections when the fungal organisms are facilitating the existence of harmful bacteria or otherwise make the host animal more vulnerable to a future infection from harmful bacteria.

[Minamommy]

Dianne. Sorry to hear that Chipper was positive but glad to hear that he seems to have a great attitude and a weight gain. Looks like going into his treatment chipper has a positive outlook on it. I think he gets that from his mom[emoji2]. I will as always keeps sending your sweetie prayers and strength while he goes through his healing process.


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[Cedardave]

Sounds like things are holding stable at least with some hope ahead.All the best with Chipper.

[spiritbird]

Awww thanks much for your sweet words Kim.

Dave and everyone else I am humbled by your support.