I'm considering something...

[plax]

Since Precisely Parrots is no longer a thriving community, and because the recent boycott/exodus by our formerly active members has predominantly stemmed from certain maliciously crafted false facts which they were fed by certain individuals, I'm considering changing permissions on our administrator discussion thread so that everyone will be able to browse, search and read what really happened. If I do this, all registered members and guests will be able to access the conversations that were truly happening behind the scenes (i.e., who said just what and how each of us responded).

The thread contains a humongous history of events dating back to the inception of Precisely Parrots in early 2013. There are 826 pages comprising 8,259 separate posts. If I decide to unlock the thread it will be permissioned as read-only and it will be entirely searchable. If this is in fact done, anyone who cares to take the time to research any particular incident relating to this forum site, dating back to the very first post submitted on March 3, 2013, will find that many of the claims leveled against me are in fact either inaccurate, or just plain false. They will also learn the genuine opinions on many topics from myself and each of my co-administrators (there were three of us when we went live in April of 2013).

Please be mindful that this thread is NOT private, meaning that it is NOT, nor has it ever been designated or represented as a private exchange of messages. So it follows that none of the posts contained therein are 'private messages'. The thread is merely permissioned for a particular usergroup on this forum site, nothing more. I can easily change that permission status. And I really see nothing to lose since everyone is already angry anyway.

Speaking of anger, it's difficult for me not to feel bitter toward those who have fabricated false facts and twisted others to suit their purpose in vilifying me. Especially considering that said efforts have considerably slandered my reputation with bird forum folks. Sometimes the best thing to do when one cannot combat false claims hurled behind their back is to disclose all of the relevant documents. And there are plenty of those in this case! Since it would be enormously time-consuming as well as impractical to try and parse all of the pertinent exchanges contained within the thread at issue, the simplest thing may be to allow anyone who's interested to read whatever they wish. Right now it seems that this is perhaps my only option to defend myself against a number of the false facts used against me. There is one caveat to making this thread public, however. If I proceed to grant general access permission to the thread, even if I tell the search engine crawlers to ignore it, there will undoubtedly still be certain spider bots that persist to access and archive posts therein. That means that portions of the thread will likely become permanently cached on certain websites. So effectively I won't ever be able to 'turn it off'. And that's one of the reasons I'm not jumping to this step before thinking it over carefully.

I haven't made my decision yet about publicizing the thread. I wish I didn't have to even consider it. I wish it hadn't come to this. I feel that I have little more to lose, though... and there's no other way to defend myself against the privately conveyed slander :(

[jacksmom]

Oh, please don't. Seriously considering leaving this forum for good if we can't just get past this. I don't even want to repeat the ridiculous story I just got an earful of in a pm. :( If every time I turn on a certain channel it has something sad/upsetting on it, I will eventually stop...

[josiesmom]

I'm lost here. I know the gist of what happened but isn't it done and over with already? Can't we just move on? At this point, does it really matter who said what to whom? Personally, I don't see how unlocking those exchanges will change anyone's opinion. I'm sorry for what happened here because even though I wasn't always active, I did browse through every day and read what was new with everyone's flock. If you were to unlock those exchanges, I would not take the time to read them. At this point, I think that everyone already has an opinion on the situation and this will just prolong the recovery of this forum.

[jacksmom]

Agreed!!!! :)

[plax]

Duly noted on your feelings, Grace and Anita. Please be mindful of two things, though. First, it's easy for onlookers to say "Please STOP the drama already!" for the simple fact that they have not been personally slandered to a point of having their friendships destroyed and their name tarnished among a community of folks, and with an effect of nearly everyone placing as much distance between me (this forum site) and themselves as possible. It's really a catch-22 situation for me because there are few, if any, ways to defend myself against the statements leveled against me to folks in private which have caused this huge exodus and collective avoidance. As such, my only available defensive options involve challenging those slanderous statements (the ones I'm aware of at least) with real facts. But whenever I attempt this without supporting evidence, folks grow even more weary of the situation and hold my defensive efforts against me. Since most folks are already angry (even more so than the two of you), and because a relatively huge number of them have thus ceased using this forum site and/or communicating with me... and since as a result this forum site is most likely beyond the point of return in terms of ever again holding a sizable active engagement of members, it can be looked upon that there's little more to lose.


I don't even want to repeat the ridiculous story I just got am earful of in a pm. :( If every time I turn on a certain channel it has something sad/upsetting on it, I will eventually stop...I suspect that the "earful" you speak of, Grace, may be the very thing I'm speaking of concerning the slanderous statements behind my back that are intended to keep folks at odds with me and thus deter them from using this forum site any longer. And that's the kind of thing that's been so harmful and which I'm unable to easily defend against... because it has been done privately, but with far-reaching effect! That effect has been quite impactful, as you can see from the level of abandonment on this website.

So the question becomes, do I go with my only available tools to defend myself from this continuing stream of slanderous assertions, since neither the use of this website nor my reputation among avian message board folks will likely ever recover to a reasonable point? Or do I simply accept the unjust vilification and fade away without resistance? What would you do? As stated in my OP, obviously I haven't yet made my final decision on whether to reveal the mentioned thread.

Thanks for the feedback.

[jacksmom]

Please keep in mind that this link isn't directed at you personally...just something that maybe all involved should read over and over until they see fit to just let this die. ;) And you do have something to loose...the posts of the people that are trying to help liven up the forum again, and not dwell in the past that yes, we were not involved in. If you have already lost these other people, why should they matter?

[Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]

And for goodness sake, cheer up! If there is one thing I know about forums - if there is a few people still trying, they always come back to life. Maybe different, but what of it? :)

[jacksmom]

Oh, and there was nothing slanderous about the pm, really...just giving me information I didn't ask for, or want. ;) Then again, if you are any type of reasonable person with a brain (I consider myself so, usually) you wouldn't put any stock in the pms of folks who are leaving a forum because of something they didn't like...yet they never...actually...leave...;) Same thing happened in a forum I sponsor with my business...everyone got all in a tizzy, the board was dead for a month or so...then what do ya know, most of the people never left at all, and new ones came to replace them, anyway. :) They don't post as frequently, and use another board "more", but in the end, old habits die hard, and they always check back.

And reputations on bird forums...I suspect it is the same as with reef forums. Thinking individuals beginning their forum browsing don't really care what a clique of old timers think about another individual...unless they see some proof to agree with. :)

[Macaw Lover]

Please keep in mind that this link isn't directed at you personally...just something that maybe all involved should read over and over until they see fit to just let this die. ;) And you do have something to loose...the posts of the people that are trying to help liven up the forum again, and not dwell in the past that yes, we were not involved in. If you have already lost these other people, why should they matter?

[Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]

And for goodness sake, cheer up! If there is one thing I know about forums - if there is a few people still trying, they always come back to life. Maybe different, but what of it? :)

I so agree. What happened here is not right. People will have made their decisions on which way to go and unfortunately you will not be able to change peoples minds I fear. I can understand you wanting to get your side out there but will it really and truly change things? I seriously doubt it.

At this point I am worried about what this is doing to you personally. Do not allow them to continue to torture you as that is what it looks like the ultimate goal is. YOU have control over that and it is up to YOU to no longer allow it. I have seen enough of bird forums fall apart and for the reasons this one is does not seem right. You have put your blood, sweat and tears into getting it up and running and for the reason that it was started in the first place, to have it fall apart for that very same reason was not right and those involved need to live with themselves. I have always said: Pay back is really a bitch, especially when I am not involved.

You have my phone number, if you want to talk, call me tomorrow evening when I will be home. Gotta get my work started so I can still have a pay check.

[plax]

I understand that you aren't necessarily directing the message from your link to me specifically, Grace. But I'm sure there are many who view me in that light. So I have to again emphasize that it's not 'a need to be right' with me. It has instead been a need to protect as many companion birds as possible from unnecessary demise! Nothing more. And it has always been about the birds for me, despite that certain disgruntled individuals flipped it around and campaigned to make it appear that it's really been about me. Again, it would be hard for anyone to understand unless they have personally experienced this type of social assault as a diversion from their well-intended efforts to protect someone or something. As I've said, it's easy for onlookers to say "just drop it!" when it's not they who are facing the predicament.

As for forums recovering... I can tell you that it's not an easy, or, in some cases, even a possible thing to do. It took a huge amount of combined effort to get to the point we attained in one year. It was a combination of social promotion (largely on Wendy's part - credit where credit is due) and development of search engine ranking (one of my contributions), and of course reliance on the friendships we already held with folks from other bird forums. But once those folks have been tarnished against you -once they have been lost, as you say- there's not a lot of resource available to generate replacement members. Most people already have their favorite forums and social hangouts... then considering the black cloud currently hanging over PP, it doesn't look at all good recovery-wise. This message board is not designed for a mere three or four people to use. And that's the best it can likely be for a long while to come.


Then again, if you are any type of reasonable person with a brain (I consider myself so, usually) you wouldn't put any stock in the pms of folks who are leaving a forum because of something they didn't like...yet they never...actually...leave...;)It's not a matter of putting stock in such PMs... it's a matter of the obvious effect that such PMs and emails have had on the members of this forum site. Obviously those private communications have been a hugely negative factor for this place since the bulk of formerly active users here joined in with the boycott. And your implication is that your recent PM exchange with someone (who has not yet left here) in fact shared with you that they are leaving this website because of something they don't like. And I can guess who that something may be. If that's the case, it just goes to bolster my point about the negatives people have been spreading and their impactful effect :(

But again, thanks for your feedback, Grace :)

[94lt1]

I feel that people should be able to know the truth of what's transpired.. And see everything for what it is.. THEN at least all of the cards will be on the table..

I say go for it man..

[jacksmom]

Okay, fine. I spent over an hour posting things this morning, apparently for nothing, since one or two people don't matter. Go ahead...like you said, it doesn't matter anyway - go ahead and finish nailing all those coffin nails. I am done arguing. Easier to find another forum than to try and argue to you that us few members left active don't want to see this anymore. I tried. Notice that even though I posted several things, you guys only really responded to one. This one. Guess I see what this forum is for now. ;) I'm done, I don't need this kind of negativity in my life.

[plax]

Okay, fine. I spent over an hour posting things this morning, apparently for nothing, since one or two people don't matter. Go ahead...like you said, it doesn't matter anyway - go ahead and finish nailing all those coffin nails. I am done arguing. Easier to find another forum than to try and argue to you that us few members left active don't want to see this anymore. I tried. Notice that even though I posted several things, you guys only really responded to one. This one. Guess I see what this forum is for now. ;) I'm done, I don't need this kind of negativity in my life.Are you responding to me or Brandon, Grace? We're not the same person.

[jacksmom]

I know, I was sort of addressing anyone that feels this needs to be dragged out longer, I got a little vague. My apologies. Since someone now agrees with you, I assumed you would stop fighting me, agree with them, and go for it. I don't want to hang out here and watch this place finish dying...since you are so sure that is what will happen anyway if you drop it...rather than a healing process.

[jacksmom]

I don't speak from an uneducated place, either...one forum I have been sponsoring almost a decade now. I have seen it go through many, many changes. Bird forums aren't the only kind out there...nor are they the only kind that people get a little crazy over issues on.

And...just to point out what to me is obvious...since no one that doesn't know what happened has responded to say please go draw attention to this mess...doesn't that mean that you have your answer? And if it is about protecting the birds...haven't you already done that? Does killing what is left of this forum help any? Or does it kill the last place that someone is willing to risk everything for them? You say it isn't about being right...prove it. Because you aren't protecting anything anymore. :(

[plax]

I know, I was sort of addressing anyone that feels this needs to be dragged out longer, I got a little vague. My apologies.Fair enough.


Since someone now agrees with you, I assumed you would stop fighting me, agree with them, and go for it.First, your assumption would be incorrect. I'm not looking to have one person agree with me to base my decision upon. And next, I don't consider what we were doing to be "fighting". I consider it a discussion.


I don't want to hang out here and watch this place finish dying...since you are so sure that is what will happen anyway if you drop it...rather than a healing process.Duly noted. As you've suggested, it all boils down to whether I feel that recovery efforts would prove futile or not. And I haven't entirely made up my mind as to that yet. But I do appreciate your opinion, and I HAVE listened to what you've expressed. And I also appreciate your concern :)

[Macaw Lover]

Grace is right Tony

[plax]

Grace is right TonyI understand your opinion, Renee'. Thanks for your concern as well :)

[jacksmom]

Well, I do understand it is a very personal decision for you, but forgive me if I don't want to waste my time while you decide whether or not you want to keep the forum going. I have never in my life posted so many pictures on any forum without it being a business ad, and I didn't do it so I could get attention, or someone could say "Aw". I did it to show you and everyone else that there is a reason this forum is here. If I didn't remind you of that today, and give you motivation to save it - then I leave you to MacawLover, who has far more patience than I. ;)

(I get to the "tough love" stage very quickly, sorry!!!!) :rolleyes:

[Blancaej]

First of all, I wanted to respond to this thread as my PM was mentioned in it. And also to prove that people are not just lurking behind the scenes to hurt the forum!

Yes, I've been on and off PP several times now. I signed on to discover that the forum had been through a major change with the administration and moderators. I read both sides of the story and made my own conclusions. I have been on since to find out some info on my own account and threads that I have posted. And yes, I've read a few posts.

I was then told that in another post it was mentioned that I might do signatures still and that I was signed on all the time. I never signed off my laptop so it appeared I was signed in all the time.

So I PM'd Jacksmom to let her know I would do a signature for her if she really wanted one but only through email. As I had no intentions of posting on PP any longer, but I had not mentioned that in my first post. I was going to end my involvement there (figuring if she wanted a signature she would email me) but then Jacksmom PM'd me back telling me that she really didn't need one and asked if I would post on the forum that I was available to do signatures. I then PM'd her that I was planning to no longer post on the forum and why. She asked me to post and so I told her why I didn't want to participate any longer.

She is the only person I have PM'd. It is not my intention to chase people away from the forum and to send PM's to people. I only told her why I had planned on leaving because she asked me to post!

So I am here to set the record straight instead of speculation running ramped about the so called PM!

The best thing for this forum is to get over all this and move on and start trying to find new members. All this is just going to hurt the forum more and more. I really wish you could see that. Appreciate the members who have chosen to stick around and build from there. Because if you keep this up, you are going to lose the few members you have managed to hold on to. Just MHO. Enough said, I am done here.

[plax]

Well, I do understand it is a very personal decision for you, but forgive me if I don't want to waste my time while you decide whether or not you want to keep the forum going. I have never in my life posted so many pictures on any forum without it being a business ad, and I didn't do it so I could get attention, or someone could say "Aw". I did it to show you and everyone else that there is a reason this forum is here. If I didn't remind you of that today, and give you motivation to save it - then I leave you to MacawLover, who has far more patience than I. ;)

(I get to the "tough love" stage very quickly, sorry!!!!) :rolleyes:And you've certainly expressed your views, Grace. I've tried to express mine as well. From your above statement I can see that you understand that the situation presents a bit of a different view from my standpoint... both because of the personal nature of the matter, and especially because of the system I've tried to enforce to keep certain birds safer than they might otherwise be. And there has always been a reason for this forum. And you have been part of that reason! But you know, if I hadn't thought this project could sustain its bird safety policy rules, there would have never been a Precisely Parrots. I wouldn't have even become involved with the management of an avian message board because that Internet-related risk factor has been so key in unnecessarily harming pet birds. So the mission to help curtail as much of that as possible has been my motivating factor from the beginning, as well as my top priority throughout (partly because it's a doable thing... at least in theory).

Just please know that your words were not wasted on me, Grace. Nor were Renee's. But you should understand that ultimately I have to work this out for myself. I value your views, though.

[jacksmom]

Thanks, Blanca, I didn't have the patience to go through all that. :)

I can't tell you though, how many times I have seen someone write that - and yet, here you are - still watching this post. Come on, just everyone kiss and make up a little, lol. You guys lurking and messaging each other when someone mentions you on here...you obviously don't REALLY want to leave, or you wouldn't be reading this.

Plax, it is hard to make someone choose between their friends and their beliefs. Some chose the opposite way that you did. That doesn't make them bad people. They reasoned it wasn't bad enough to make a stink over - so they could keep both the friend and the belief. Forgive them. Especially if they can see fit to forgive you for making them feel as if they don't care about their birds.

Now, don't any of you dare come back at the other party with something smart. I am gonna mama bear this one down, lol. And I'm sorry, Tony, but seriously, this is not all about you, and your fight. It is about Precisely Parrots. When you ALL worked so hard on this forum, you kinda gave birth to it. And you are all being bad parents. :banghead:

Yes, yes, I am a Taurus. ;)

[plax]

First of all, I wanted to respond to this thread as my PM was mentioned in it. And also to prove that people are not just lurking behind the scenes to hurt the forum!

Yes, I've been on and off PP several times now. I signed on to discover that the forum had been through a major change with the administration and moderators. I read both sides of the story and made my own conclusions. I have been on since to find out some info on my own account and threads that I have posted. And yes, I've read a few posts.

I was then told that in another post it was mentioned that I might do signatures still and that I was signed on all the time. I never signed off my laptop so it appeared I was signed in all the time.

So I PM'd Jacksmom to let her know I would do a signature for her if she really wanted one but only through email. As I had no intentions of posting on PP any longer, but I had not mentioned that in my first post. I was going to end my involvement there (figuring if she wanted a signature she would email me) but then Jacksmom PM'd me back telling me that she really didn't need one and asked if I would post on the forum that I was available to do signatures. I then PM'd her that I was planning to no longer post on the forum and why. She asked me to post and so I told her why I didn't want to participate any longer.

She is the only person I have PM'd. It is not my intention to chase people away from the forum and to send PM's to people. I only told her why I had planned on leaving because she asked me to post!

So I am here to set the record straight instead of speculation running ramped about the so called PM!

The best thing for this forum is to get over all this and move on and start trying to find new members. All this is just going to hurt the forum more and more. I really wish you could see that. Appreciate the members who have chosen to stick around and build from there. Because if you keep this up, you are going to lose the few members you have managed to hold on to. Just MHO. Enough said, I am done here.Thank you for the explanation, Blanca. But I have to say that I find your general tone of "I'm done with this place" both bitter and condemning! And I should also say that you have always seemed to have an issue with my bird protection policy expectations here. In fact, you initially resigned from Precisely Parrots from your Super Moderator position in response to the following general message that I sent to all staff members back in January:


Hi [moderator member name],


I have a question for you that I am in the process of asking each of our moderators. As I hope you realize, there are few rules which we enforce in a hard-set, inflexible manner upon the members of our forum community. However, this matter is something that we really need to seek some assurance on.

Question:
Are you willing to uphold the policy of Precisely Parrots with regard to doing whatever is necessary to keep all member-submitted photographs, videos, and text which endorses physical interaction between pet birds and cats or dogs from appearing within posts, profiles, avatars, signatures, or elsewhere on our website?

To clarify a bit, by "doing whatever is necessary" I mean utilizing whichever methods may be most effective, while being the least offensive to the members involved. This could include editing/deleting the materials, or PM'ing members to kindly explain our policy and request that they remove the materials themselves, or simply reporting the location of the materials to myself or Wendy.

Please let me know as soon as you can.


Thanks much,

TonyI don't find the above message even remotely enough of a reason to take offense and resign from our staff. The message was simply a necessary step to be sure that each of us were doing our very best to keep as many pet birds safe as possible. The birds' safety should have been the priority, not the attitude!

[plax]

And I'm sorry, Tony, but seriously, this is not all about you, and your fight. It is about Precisely Parrots. When you ALL worked so hard on this forum, you kinda gave birth to it. And you are all being bad parents. :banghead:

Yes, yes, I am a Taurus. ;)No, I am sorry Grace. The whole issue stemmed from and remains about protecting pet birds! If you don't believe that you're wrong. That's all it has ever been about! People have done everything possible to dvert the situation from that... but it remains the whole issue with me. It takes so little effort on the part of staff members to accord to our bird protection policy, and it can do so much good! Saving the life of just one bird is a helluva lot of GOOD! Please don't try and tell me it's not about the birds, because that's all it has ever been about. I can't help the fact that so many have clouded the issue. I am not a bad person and my cause has been genuine. And I certainly should have the right to defend myself from slanderous assertions.

Yes, I become emotional about this issue because making it into a human conflict when my only crime was doing my best to help birds is a very disturbing thing :(

[Blancaej]

You and I both know the real reason I resigned was because of a letter you wrote to someone on an entirely different forum and the tone you used in such letter. Plus, you signed it from the Precisely Parrot folks and I wanted no part of it! I had no problem upholding the policy here. But going after people on other forums and trying to publicly crucify them on the other hand, I had a problem with.

I also said "I am done here" not with "this place" - I think you are reading what you want to read in everyone's words. My words were to mean "I am done here" meaning my posting is done. But here I am again, trying to set the record straight!

[plax]

You and I both know the real reason I resigned was because of a letter you wrote to someone on an entirely different forum and the tone you used in such letter. Plus, you signed it from the Precisely Parrot folks and I wanted no part of it! I had no problem upholding the policy here. But going after people on other forums and trying to publicly crucify them on the other hand, I had a problem with.

I also said "I am done here" not with "this place" - I think you are reading what you want to read in everyone's words. My words were to mean "I am done here" meaning my posting is done. But here I am again, trying to set the record straight!The letter you are referring to did not reference you personally, Blanca. It was signed "Precisely Parrots Management" if I recall correctly. There was no "folks" in the signature. And it was a letter of passion and concern for a terribly dangerous pictorial presentation of predator pet / prey pet intermingling occurring on the other forum site. My co-administrator and I discussed said letter extensively, looking over and weighing each draft until we felt it was acceptable to send. And it wasn't until we both agreed that the letter was ready to send that it was in fact sent. So it was not my decision alone. I have to say, though, that I regretted sending it soon thereafter, not because it didn't accurately represent my feelings, but because of all of the negativity it generated. But it's in the past and you didn't resign until I sent the PM quoted above. You replied to said PM stating your intentions to resign. So it seems that the PM somehow finalized your choice to leave our staff.

[jtbirds]

Well Well I come home from work to this big mess... and honestly i skimmed through this all. You are all being outrageous about this situation. Tony I am disappointed you will not let this topic die, I understand your views but by pounding away at it only makes it worse. Its like punching a wall with a broken fist all it does is break something more. The rest of you I am disappointed that adults cannot see a common centerpoint and agree to disagree on something without responding in a flame war. The bottum line here is this topic should have never been made or fought over. I will not agree with anyone in this and if i had enough power this whole conversation would be removed from this forum/ minds, but now we have fought over something truly not needed and the negative feelings are pushed further and further. Not only will that produce a negative environment but it will only make things worse. The best thing to do is start over and forgive and agree to disagree.

If all that happens is hate then nothing will ever be remembered as good, If what we do is loving then things begin to sprout. Think of this forum site as a seed it was watered and cared for it grew... It was a mighty oak tree... it was then struck by lightning.. All this tree did was left behind one acorn.. it is nestled to the ground and must be watered again for it to flourish.

food for thought everyone, I hope my reply was semi non biased as i didn't want to be biased towards ether party.

kind regards.

[jtbirds]

Tony I will add this for you:

When i went to create my own rescue I told the one I had worked with for years the idea. My time donated was in the thousands and thousands of hours( I equaled it to cash value at minimum wage and it grossed easily over 40k). One day the owner was fine the next they came and took birds of mine and wrecked me. I didn't break, I didn't slander or defend all I did was move on. Sure there was some negative feelings at my heart( mainly about hurting my birds). I'd add that this lady brought disease to my home and killed two of my most precious birds. This is much much worse then the situation you faced. Yet I didn't defend or lose.. They slandered me to the ground, the people loyal to me fought for me. I stood up and did what I believed in... This didn't mean defending my believes only progressing them slowly.

This day after all the slander, battles they think they won, advantages they think they have... In the end I am coming out the winner. I have all birds clubs in my state on my side, many rescues/ whole sellers on my side. organizations and businesses and doctors rooting me on. They are drifting behind and losing all of that. They dug me to the ground, spit on me and thought they nailed my coffin as the bird expert in this area. They were wrong they only made me even better at what i do and what i can bring to the table. I now walk to any bird event and receive respect i've never asked for or tried to defend someone trying to take it from me. I open a speech at a bird club and get addressed as a bird whisperer I simply shook my head and didn't take the label. Being modest and accepting the inhumane actions of others is purely what life has become.

but to this day, while I am typing this I still achieved more, my name is still good, my bridges are finely built and not burnt. I am who I am and who I always will be and my rescue is the same. No one can take this from me because I wasn't defeated and I didn't act out.

This forum is exactly what my story was, repeat my steps i've already taken. Get rid of the hate topics and anything defending yourself and move forward you can be the bigger person. The people here will follow you and the positive energy. believe me. This is all I have to say ether follow or do not.

[PlaxMacaws]

Thanks for taking the time to express your sincere feelings on the matter, Justin. There's plenty of merit within your philosophy, and I admire what you have accomplished and are continuing to accomplish! I understand that you care and that you're trying to be helpful - your words are appreciated and they are helpful! But please realize that I'm not you. That doesn't mean I can't adapt and modify to a degree, though. But I also have limitations and differing views on some things that are specific to me. I've always been a person who tends to express my genuine feelings when a matter is very important to me. And the bird protection matter IS very important to me. Some of my decisions may not appear wise in the eyes of some. But again, I am who I am. I'm impassioned by what I'm impassioned by. I hope some of that makes a bit of sense.

Thanks again for sharing your remarkable accomplishments. Your situation is indeed impressive!

[kendrafitz]

Tony, as you are very aware, I try to stay out of these things. Conflict is not something I deal with well.

I am going to say this, and only because I really like you. You have always been kind, helpful and a good friend to me.

People disagree about everything. Doesn't matter the topic, there will eventually be a disagreement. Sometimes people do and/or say things that are hurtful. It is really horrible to be on the receiving end, no matter how the disagreement started. I know your feelings must be very hurt and it is hard for you to understand why people you considered friends acted the way they did. But I believe it doesn't help to try to understand why, if you are not going to rebuild those friendships. It doesn't matter. The important thing is for you to know that you feel good about the way you handled what was thrown at you. That is where "being the bigger person" comes in.

In my personal life I had a person that I considered a friend do something I just couldn't forgive. (It had to do with my children). It was a huge mess. She lives in my development and I had introduced her to my circle. When she realized I was done, she went kooky. Talking about me, going to all the same events and yelling her conversations so I would hear, just being icky. It was horrible. I made the decision to stop going to the events and really cut down on our social circle. I still avoid her if at all possible, since she continues these antics and it has been over 3 years since this happened. Anyway, I made the choice to be the bigger person and not talk about it or her. There were women who talked about me and went out of their way to be negative. Funny, but about 6 months after the fallout, I had some women come to me and apologize for their behavior. Others told me how they were really impressed that I didn't allow her behavior to goad me into acting on her level. Long story short, all the maliciousness did nothing in the long run. It was hell to live through and I hope to never deal with that type of situation again. But most people saw the person for who she really was on their own, given time.

My point is that keeping your chin up, trying to stay focused on the positive things and not letting people's opinions get you down will really do wonders. I would not worry too much about what others think. Anyone that knows you knows you have the best of intentions. You have your opinions and others have their own. That's what makes life interesting. Being able to learn from each other. We should all be able to get along and enjoy each other for what we are. I am a girl who believes you get more flies with honey than vinegar. You may not agree but we can still be friends, and learn from each other.

I agree with everyone that you have some great members rallying for PP. It may be a small group for now, but it is a group of people who care about our parrots, PP and you. So please don't give up on the forum. We may not all agree on how to get a message across, but we all want to continue enjoying each other's stories. That is important. With time, you may see the forum grow way beyond your expectations. It just takes a few, and you've got a great few!

[jacksmom]

I am sorry, Tony, I was not clear enough. I mean it is not about the bird's safety ANYMORE. That ship has long since sailed. ;) Picture is gone, right? :)

Cool, now this has been said in several different ways, bringing great points to the table - but I think you have your answer, yeah? :) Drop it like it's hot, or stolen, or something. ;)

[PlaxMacaws]

Thanks Kendra.. that means a lot. Obviously I have my own philosophy about many things. And that's not really something I can toggle off, mostly because there's basis behind it. While I'm lacking much enthusiasm about things right now, I do appreciate your outlook and your suggestions, as well as the time you've taken to express them. Both you and Justin have given tremendous examples with the descriptions of your own disturbing life obstacles. Thanks again! :)

[Mare]

I'm so happy to see this thread come up. I was beginning to think I was alone in my pleas with Tony to let this go and move forward. We love you Tony, we love your passion and drive. All we can really do for people is give advice, especially on a forum. Some will heed it, some won't. To try and drill it in..no, this just does not work.

You've got people behind you, Tony, good people.

[PlaxMacaws]

I am sorry, Tony, I was not clear enough. I mean it is not about the bird's safety ANYMORE. That ship has long since sailed. ;) Picture is gone, right? :)

Cool, now this has been said in several different ways, bringing great points to the table - but I think you have your answer, yeah? :) Drop it like it's hot, or stolen, or something. ;)Okay Grace, I think I need to make something clearer. The reason it's not about bird safety is because it was diverted from being about bird safety... and not by me! It should have always been about bird safety. I am not going to ever change my policy about bird protection on any board that I own or manage. I hope that you and others can appreciate that. This forum site obviously has value to me... but bird safety will always be my priority, not this website. I'm guessing you knew that, though ;)

[PlaxMacaws]

I'm so happy to see this thread come up. I was beginning to think I was alone in my pleas with Tony to let this go and move forward. We love you Tony, we love your passion and drive. All we can really do for people is give advice, especially on a forum. Some will heed it, some won't. To try and drill it in..no, this just does not work.

You've got people behind you, Tony, good people.Thanks, Mare. No drilling should be necessary. But steps to protect birds are steps to protect birds and procedures are still procedures. And what I've just stated to Grace will continue to hold true for me. I'll never give in on that point because I feel it's too important!

[JerseyWendy]

Where to start in this GENUINE mess YOU (all on your own) created, Tony. I WAS the third co-founder/Administrator of this forum. I didn’t JUST leave, I HAULED a$$ out of here after realizing it would be run by no other than a DICTATOR. Yes, Tony, that would be no other than you.

Then I learned only recently you "un-administered" the TRUE founder of this forum, Wendy P, aka Honesty.

You FREELY offered your servers, and not once mentioned that because you RAN them, your decisions on everything would have the last word. But that pretty much became VERY clear from the very beginning, hence my abrupt departure.
I am fully prepared for you to pick my post apart, Tony, as you so gallantly do with EVERY post that has an opinion OTHER than yours. Unless, of course, you delete it, before anyone else has a chance to even see it. You dish out threats and ultimatums, and then try and convince the world you didn’t do either.

To clear one thing up, this forum WAS Wendy Pearce’s baby from the VERY beginning. It was HER idea, and she worked very hard on convincing you that it “could” be a success. You AGREED to let “us” use your servers. You AGREED to give it a shot, even though you were quite negative about the whole thing from the very beginning. And yes, I DO have emails from you to substantiate my statements.

So now you are threatening to “open” the Admin section for the general public? DO IT! By all means, do us ALL a favor and show the world how Wendy and I both tried “reasoning” with you too many times to count. Do you think we had/have anything to hide?

Look at your forum, for crying out loud, isn’t THAT message clear enough? You now want to rub personal things into people’s faces? Oh wait…that’s quite LIKE you, especially since Wendy and I were the only ones to openly talk about PERSONAL things in the Admin section. YOU, on the other hand, remain, and ALWAYS will remain a BIG, FAT secret. Heaven forbird Tony posts a picture of himself, heaven forbid Tony gets too personal. So go head, Tony, AIR the “dirty” laundry. Tony certainly never does wrong, does he? How big did that halo grow since I hauled butt out of here?

What else do you have? NOTHING. And why is that? Because you OVERACHIEVE at pushing people OUT of your life.

So, OPEN the admin section WIDE up. You've always done as you saw fit, you ALWAYS disregarded Wendy and my input.

How much will you edit? How much will you allow folks to truly see? Oh wait, that's purely a rhetorical question, since I am confident that you will edit ONLY in your own personal favor.

Popcorn anyone????

[jacksmom]

Tony, darlin', everyone who ever wanted to argue about that is gone. Just us kids. ;) All we are doing here any longer is debating whether to drop it or not. You won that battle already. Honestly...congratulations on winning (photo gone, yeah?) and sticking to your guns. :)

All we have to do now is direct new members to this policy, and it will never come up again. :)

[kendrafitz]

You don't need to. But I think the best healing for the forum is to move on from this episode. Bird Safety is important. It's just best to leave the other stuff in the past, where it belongs. No one here cares what others have to say, I think we are all the type of people to make decisions based on our own experiences. Not what others say/do. :)

[plax]

Tony, darlin', everyone who ever wanted to argue about that is gone. Just us kids. ;)Do you care to re-assess that, Grace? ;)

[plax]

If anyone would like me to undelete the post from Wendy K and address it, please let me know. I will be happy to do so. It was full of false facts, as expected.

[jacksmom]

Oh, did I speak too soon? Do we need to re-asses? I know that was a typo, but DANG it worked well as a giggle. Yeah, re-asses for sure! ;)

Booo! No one wants to hear it! Glad it was deleted! :) Now THAT'S moderating. :)

[Mare]

Holy Moly!! Wendy K, can't you see that we are trying to move forward? Please go away..for this to work, everyone has to let go, including you Tony.

[jacksmom]

Tony is coming around. I can tell. We just all need to sit back and re-asses. :)

[plax]

Holy Moly!! Wendy K, can't you see that we are trying to move forward? Please go away..for this to work, everyone has to let go, including you Tony.She's gone, Mare. She's actually the only one I've ever banned from here. When she left this forum initially she proceeded to tell everyone that I'm a "psycho" and a "woman hater" behind my back. She was upset because she wanted to dictate how things would be here and it didn't work out for her. Anyway, that should be enough about her for now.

[plax]

Oh, did I speak too soon? Do we need to re-asses? I know that was a typo, but DANG it worked well as a giggle. Yeah, re-asses for sure! ;)Oh yeah, I just fixed it ;)

[jacksmom]

Aw. Butt it was funny. :D

[kendrafitz]

Ok, thank you for the laugh!! I will sit back and re-asses while Tony comes around!! LOL!

[Mare]

I think I'm going to have to nick name you, "last word Tony"!

[plax]

I think I'm going to have to nick name you, "last word Tony"!I'm merely passionate about my views, Mare :)

[Mare]

Yes, I believe we all know this :)

[94lt1]

My thoughts... Perhaps many of you don't see this.. But.. To stand idly by and allow people to treat you this way is not something most of us would do in real life.. Or online..

I understand the other members here wanting things to blow over... And I see threats of leaving.. As I'm no longer a SMod.. I can say...

It's easy to give advice and say walk away.. Especially if you're not the one under the gun.. Tony and I talk almost daily.. I'd very tire to say that I've talked to him more in the last month, than most of you even have.. Perhaps I'm wrong..

A few things I know.. This situation deeply affects him. And to have supporters say... Let it go.. I can see that.. But AFTER being supportive..

It seems as though he's hung up on this.. Well.. I would be too. I know when someone sticks a knife in my back.. I tend to be a bit testy...

I support what you stand for man.. I appreciate that you're standing up for the birds I know how this has been turned.. I could've chosen to look at it from any number of views.

I know your name is being ran down.. I know you've taken the high road.. I know how it feels. I'm sorry.. I know you're a good guy.. I know where your heart and mind are...

I know this has caused a lot of emotional turmoil for you. I hope you find closure on this.. And though it may seem that I'm pushing for a war.. I'm not.. I'm merely pushing for you to meet force with force if you need to.. And I'm behind you..I know that means jack.. Cause I'm hardly here.. But I'll be damned if I'll let anyone get pushed around.. Thanx for reading..

[jtbirds]

being passionate is a good quality in anything and anyone. Long ago tony on the forum we met do you remember my passion that no bird needed to scream 8 hours a day and how i was ran to the ground because i was wrong and abusive for stopping a screaming cockatoo. When in all reality all it did was hurt the bird to be screaming 8 hours a day because it is an addiction? Hardly anyone, but terri viewed it the same as me.. I feel your pain but I didn't hound on it at all.

You know i'm around to support you and do whats best if you want you know my pm is open to just freely, uncaringly discuss anything:). Your a great friend and person and your views are correct. Everyone is free to views if those differ from yours they can be "removed" which is what happened so as a part of the mod team working toward keeping the correct views in mind is what the future should hold.

As i said my pm is always open.

[jacksmom]

94lt1...I have seen nothing anymore that needs to be defended against. I can appreciate wanting to defend yourself while it is going on, I suppose...but what are you proposing we attack? Old threads? Ghosts? Silly...I am sorry I did not spend enough time being "supportive", in any sort of wishy washy sort of way - I am just not that kind of girl. Take me with my blunt edge, or not at all, I guess. ;) I can promise you that I have nothing but Tony's best interests at heart - though I think it admirable you want to defend your friend...don't you think he would be happier NOT talking about it every day? :) Maybe happier moving on from it, since the community left seems to think it better dropped?

[Mare]

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Ok,,,just replace the word Facebook with PP and we've got a GO!

[BeakFace]

i feel that people should be able to know the truth of what's transpired.. And see everything for what it is.. Then at least all of the cards will be on the table..

I say go for it man..

Go for it! Let people know exactly what happen and decide for themselves. These other people need to be exposed for who they really are. I believe you 100% and your honesty is obvious!

[94lt1]

94lt1...I have seen nothing anymore that needs to be defended against. I can appreciate wanting to defend yourself while it is going on, I suppose...but what are you proposing we attack? Old threads? Ghosts? Silly...I am sorry I did not spend enough time being "supportive", in any sort of wishy washy sort of way - I am just not that kind of girl. Take me with my blunt edge, or not at all, I guess. ;) I can promise you that I have nothing but Tony's best interests at heart - though I think it admirable you want to defend your friend...don't you think he would be happier NOT talking about it every day? :) Maybe happier moving on from it, since the community left seems to think it better dropped?
You may see it as silly.. But I see it as turning on the lights and letting the roaches scurry.. I have no personal stake in this..

Do you know that it's not still going on.. Though it may not be going on here..

I have nothing against being blunt.. Trust me.. When it comes to being blunt, I'm a 10 lb maul..

The idea here isn't to attack anyone.. It's to simply(if decided) lay it on the table.. And for those who want to know.. And perhaps those that need to know.. To be able to use it as a point of reference.

If I were calling for an attack.. I wouldn't call.. I'd lead.. And I'd do it on my own.. That's that. This isn't a situation like that.. It's a situation where a good man is being slandered and people are playing games..

I see your point.. Thinking of this as fighting ghosts.. And if an attack was the intent, it would definitely be futile. But this is opening the archives, so to speak.. I see it more like fighting for a person's honor.. With a pen... And the other people wrote the script.

Should Tony decide not to do this.. That's awesome too.. Whatever you decide Tony.. I'm with ya.

[jacksmom]

94Lt1...I have no time left this morning- but I just wanted to say I can tell we will get along very well! :D

[2birds]

Wow Tony, There is a lot of people here who really care about you. Every persons opinion on what they think you should do may differ but the one common thread is that everyone here cares about you, the forum and they want you to prosper. I think that is a pretty neat thing.
If my two cents is worth anything, I would say drop it, continue on in a positive manner, and let what you really stand for shine. But, I also understand your need to clear the air so to speak. So, whatever you choose is the better thing, just do it and move on.

[PlaxMacaws]

Thanks for your thoughts and sentiments, Lori :)

[plax]

I wish to inform everyone that I have decided NOT to change the permissions on the administrator discussion thread. I did receive a threat of legal action in response to my starting this 'Controversial Topics' thread on considering the permissions change. I want to clarify, however, that said threat of legal action is not why I have decided against making the administrator discussion thread accessible to everyone. I will explain further below.

To begin with, I don't believe there is any legal precedent that would preclude my changing the permissions on the administrator discussion thread from its current state, which, as it stands, allows full access by all members of this website's administrator usergroup. And next, it has neither been stated nor implied that the administrator discussion thread is intended to be a private or personal message exchange facility for myself or other individuals who may have posted messages therein. And finally, my contemplation on possibly changing the permissions for the administrator discussion thread was in no way motivated by a desire to reveal message dialogs therein - I have no desire whatever to do that. Instead, I was considering the permission change for the sole purpose of exposing the false claims against me that have been generated and disseminated since the outset of the bird protection conflict.

One relevant factor that should be mentioned concerning the administrator discussion thread and the privacy/secrecy of its contents, which many of you may not realize, will hopefully become clear with what I'm about to explain. If I ever appoint another administrator on this message board, that person will automatically receive inherent access rights to said administrator discussion thread. And this is because the vBulletin category structure and associated forum permissions must accord to each parent forum's usergroup permissions assignment. To serve as an example, I will point out that exactly the same situation is true for our newly appointed Super Moderators, who each inherently receive full access to all of our Moderator section discussion threads once their moderator status privileges have been implemented. So it is by design that no usergroup permissioned threads (which all in fact are) qualify as private threads. Instead, some of them merely have access restrictions according to their respective usergroup permissions. And that is exactly the case with the threads under the administrator section. They are merely threads with restricted access per their usergroup permissions. The distinction between thread permission restrictions and private communications facilitation is very significant, and very important.

In summary, the administrator discussion thread has never been intended to serve as a private line of communications between persons who have exchanged or persons who, at a future point, may exchange messages there. Despite this fact, however, at this time I have no plans to change permissions on the administrator discussion thread or its parent forum. Ultimately, folks typically believe what they wish, and whom they choose. I realize there is no way for me to change inclinations in this regard. But in the end, the mass support for false assertions that has been demonstrated throughout this conflict will not change the truth.

I am locking this thread. As a final gesture, I would like to thank each of you who has offered your sincere thoughts on this disturbing matter.

[plax]

Where to start in this GENUINE mess YOU (all on your own) created, Tony.In truth, you yourself played a huge role in our rough road at the beginning, Wendy. You were the one who couldn't handle not being able to dominate the scene. Whenever something didn't accord to your wishes you would somehow feel compelled to throw one of your many tantrums. You discouraged my friend Danielle from her generous offer to create our original site banner... which pressed me into doing all of the graphics for this website. All three of us had agreed that Danielle would be the one to create our banner, not me, and not you. Yet you kept creating and submitting banner prototypes while Danielle was working on the project. And each time during the course of our many discussions that I disagreed with one of your actions and courteously expressed why, you proceeded to harshly reprimand me with criticism. And with each such reprimand, strangely you would insist that I had hurled uncalled for, hurtful insults toward you... despite that no such thing had occurred. Those erroneous accusations of yours always seemed to appear out of left field. The truth is, Wendy, that I never insulted you during our discussions. The only explanation I can think of for your repeated false accusations is that you must be hypersensitive to the point that you read in nonexistent meaning from between the lines, then convince yourself that your erroneous interpretations are correct.

I won't quote any of your text from within our admin thread, here. But as an example of my bewilderment with your accusations I will post one of my responses to you from April 7, 2013:


Wendy K, I've replied to your PM. You keep saying that I've stated hurtful things to you today... I can't think of any. Please quote them for me if you would. The only thing that comes to mind is that you misinterpreted some of my statements (e.g., you said that I was inferring it was me alone who is worthy of the credit for our progress - a complete untruth!). As I've touched upon in my response to your PM, when someone begins falsely accusing me of saying or meaning some negative which I in fact did not say or mean, I may become rather bitter in subsequent exchanges with said individual. But even considering that fact, I can't think of anything I've stated to you today that could reasonably be considered as hurtful by intent. Discussing the relative size of Ripley's head in a photo just doesn't seem that it should be able to hurt someone's feelings to me. I guess I don't get it.

I've never once used insulting/derogatory terms or otherwise cruel comments towards you! You, however, have continually used criticism and sarcasm toward me :(


I WAS the third co-founder/Administrator of this forum. I didn’t JUST leave, I HAULED a$$ out of here after realizing it would be run by no other than a DICTATOR. Yes, Tony, that would be no other than you.And your above statement demonstrates how you're still prone to hurl out such rudeness, Wendy :(


Then I learned only recently you "un-administered" the TRUE founder of this forum, Wendy P, aka Honesty.I doubt she appreciates you telling folks that I removed her status. And it's more accurate to say that she and I were both the true founders here. Whereas you were invited aboard by a mutual agreement between Wendy P and myself because each of us considered you a great friend at the time.


You FREELY offered your servers, and not once mentioned that because you RAN them, your decisions on everything would have the last word. But that pretty much became VERY clear from the very beginning, hence my abrupt departure.What I encouraged was discussion about the pros and cons of each potential decision. It's not my fault that you repeatedly became offended and emotional when we didn't use your ideas. And yes, I not only offered my servers... I as well did so free of any hosting charges. Hosting of this website came at no cost whatever to either of you. I gladly provided and paid for the web hosting, as well as willingly installed and configured the software, created the customized code, did all of the set up and technical troubleshooting, created and maintained the redundancy systems, and ultimately did all of the graphics. I did everything that you had neither the knowledge nor the resources to do. And I didn't expect anything for it from you other than courtesy and reason. I guess that was too much to expect :(


I am fully prepared for you to pick my post apart, Tony, as you so gallantly do with EVERY post that has an opinion OTHER than yours. Unless, of course, you delete it, before anyone else has a chance to even see it. You dish out threats and ultimatums, and then try and convince the world you didn’t do either.As for threats and ultimatums, that's all in your mind. And I wasn't going to do a point-by-point on this 'sneak attack' post of yours, Wendy. But I got to thinking, why should I hide it? So I've undeleted it. And BTW, what's with all of the CAPS? You've always tended toward excessive CAPS for expression of emphasis, especially when you're feeling hostile toward someone. You should realize, Wendy, that your excessive CAPS style of emphasis makes it fairly easy to tell who you are, even when you don't want folks to know ;)


To clear one thing up, this forum WAS Wendy Pearce’s baby from the VERY beginning. It was HER idea, and she worked very hard on convincing you that it “could” be a success.No argument from me about that. I was certainly not inclined to become involved in a message board at the beginning - this is one of the few accurate statements you've made here so far. Ultimately the reason I decided to involve myself in creating and hosting this website is because of our agreement that it would serve as a vehicle to promote pet bird safety ahead of all else - unlike so many other irresponsible bird forum sites (one of which you're intimately connected with).


You AGREED to let “us” use your servers.Wrong! Neither of "you" would have been able to use my servers, since neither of you knows anything about Linux server management and maintenance, including about root-level functionality or commands. Hence, your limited level of technical knowledge means that you were only suited to move into a management role at a preexisting, already functioning message board. You could not have done the installation, the set up, or the maintenance tasks from the ground up. And you certainly wouldn't have been able to do the custom coding tasks. I'm sorry, but I had to correct you on this, Wendy.


You AGREED to give it a shot, even though you were quite negative about the whole thing from the very beginning. And yes, I DO have emails from you to substantiate my statements.And I too have those emails. I have them all! You're correct on this in that I was indeed hesitant.


So now you are threatening to “open” the Admin section for the general public? DO IT! By all means, do us ALL a favor and show the world how Wendy and I both tried “reasoning” with you too many times to count. Do you think we had/have anything to hide?I'm quite certain from your above sarcastic remarks that you felt you were calling a bluff on my part. But I assure you it was no bluff! I was seriously considering revealing the truth to all. But I thought better of doing that because of the personal nature of certain unrelated items within our admin thread. I simply think it would have been inappropriate to reveal certain things. And concerning your purported attempts to reason with me, one of the main problems was that you never made effort to reason with me. And that's a hard fact! Instead, you threw your tantrums and continually criticized me. And on to your above question... Yes, Wendy... sadly, I DO know that you have some things to hide. I've in fact witnessed a few of them.


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What else do you have? NOTHING. And why is that? Because you OVERACHIEVE at pushing people OUT of your life.Among other things, I have my beloved birds. Most compassionate bird-loving folks realize what a treasure these guys in fact are and I'm sure would not agree with you that I have NOTHING! Moreover, you don't know what else I may or may not possess. I think your speculative remarks here are inappropriate at best.


So, OPEN the admin section WIDE up. You've always done as you saw fit, you ALWAYS disregarded Wendy and my input.And that's another falsehood on your part. Wendy P had extensive input and effect upon the directions this website took. Although she may dispute it now (because she's angry with me), we discussed each potential action before its implementation and decided together what would take place. So once again, you're wrong, Wendy.


How much will you edit? How much will you allow folks to truly see? Oh wait, that's purely a rhetorical question, since I am confident that you will edit ONLY in your own personal favor.I've not edited one single thing. If you dispute that, I'm sure some of our members who managed to read your reply post here before I soft-deleted it can attest to the fact.


Popcorn anyone????Naturally you end on a note of sarcasm... you can be a rude individual at times, Wendy :th_shakehead: