Wing Flipping in Amazons?

[Flashzon]

What could be some causes of wing flipping in an Amazon? I'm familiar with this in the eclectus, can the same causes be to blame? Can Harrison's pellets be too heavy on the vitamins? My amazon is eating the high potency, has been for 2 months. They recommend 6 months when converting. I don't supplement with vitamins. She gets small amounts of veggies and occ fruit or nuts as snacks. Very bizarre

[roxynoodle]

A primary cause in any bird can be heavy metal toxicity. Unfortunately not all bird toys are made from safe metals and there have been reports of lead in powder coating for most of the major cage manufacturers. Or if the pc is missing anywhere on the cage, the wrought iron can be a source of HMT. And of course things in our home can be as well.

The pellets should be fine, but after the 6 months, I'd switch him to the Lifetime formula unless there is some reason to keep him on the HP. My zon has fatty liver disease and does better with the HP.

Is it possible to post a video for us to see what he's doing?

[Flashzon]

I will try to take a video. It's pretty sporadic so far. I will have to check my cage. 90% of my toys come from my safe bird store, or I make them myself...

[keepsmiling]

She gets small amounts of veggies and occ fruit or nuts as snacks. Vegetables and a small amount of fruit should be a daily part of her diet. I would suggest a full check up with an avian vet is in order, including a CBC[complete blood count].
Welcome to the forum!:th_welcome2:

[Honesty]

:pp_welcome:That would be good if you could post a video. It will gives us a better idea as to what the problem could be.

[roxynoodle]

Can I ask for some more information? How old is he and how long have you had him? Has he always done the wing flipping or did it start after you adopted him?

Has he had a wellness check from a vet recently?

Amazons should have a lower fat and protein diet than some species need. Pellets and veggies with some fruit and nuts. Because of the fatty liver my zon isn't allowed any fruit except one small piece of apple daily, and no peas either.

If this is an older zon, particularly if he was on a seed diet before you got him, it's possible as well he has liver issues. If so, this is the diet my bird is on:

Harrison's HP pellets, Nutriberries, walnuts, one piece of apple, veggies and some other human foods: chicken or turkey, brown rice, multi-grain breads and waffles, pasta with tomato sauce. He's allowed all the pellets, Nutriberries and veggies he wants. He also gets 2 teaspoons of mashed potatoes each day that his medication goes into (milk thistle/dandelion for his liver). Being a wild caught zon in his 30s, it's much easier for both of us for him to eat his meds in the potatoes than to towel him and force a syringe into his beak. He also tends to destroy one syringe every time he's medicated, lol! I'd go through 60 a month!

[Flashzon]

She's 8 months old currently. Just a baby. I got her from a breeder and did a full work up including bloodwork when she first got here. She is a screamer and have been working on that, lately she has been starting to over preen, feather bite/barber. My vet checked her out again and couldnt see a medical reason for it. It seems like she's only wing flipping while im holding her? I will see if my boyfriendcan tape it. She shouldnt be bored, she has a ton of toys, we play with her everyday, she gets lots of out of cage time. We e increased her foraging a LOT to try and help with the barbering..

[Flashzon]

The breeder clipped her wings prior to me getting her which I am not happy about, could she be wing flipping bc of the incoming flight feathers? She doesn't like the shower but she will bathe in a bowl. I dont think she's itchy??

[Sandy]

My Amazon wing flips now and again. Sometimes it's just to re-arrange his feathers. Sometimes it's "I don't want to be touched right now", Sometimes it is a feather coming in.
It's not always a health issue, for mine it's behavioral and is of no real issue.

[keepsmiling]

Over preening and barbering feathers is highly unusual for an 8 month old bird. She may be in pain. Do you have other birds? I would take her back and get more tests done, like for ABV.

[Sandy]

I agree, especially since over preening and such is not common in Amazons to begin with.

[roxynoodle]

What is her diet?

Does she have full spectrum lighting or is able to get out in the sun 3 or 4 days a week?

[henpecked]

Couple of things Hi=Pro pellets are not for the average amazon, free flighted and active or a breeder it might be OK,Not a companion ,clipped bird, too much fat and protein. Wing Flipping in HEN zons is to stimulate a male who's mounting her. if this is what is happening ,it's because she is being stimulated by your petting. (even at an early age)

[keepsmiling]

Ahhh...that is really interesting!

[Flashzon]

I was wondering if the hi pro was way too much for her. Would ABV have more symptoms like vomiting, undigested food in droppings,weight loss? She doesn't have any of these symptoms?

[roxynoodle]

ABV is pretty complicated (my Grey has it). Most birds have no symptoms ever in their lives. Other birds can become sick enough that it becomes fatal.

My Grey has cataracts, seizures and some other minor neurological issues like falling off perches (rarely, about once every 4 months or so). She also has very large poop but I suspect that is at least partially psychological as she seems to poop normally at night. I suspect her previous owners may have tried to potty train her and she thought she wasn't supposed to poop at all, ever, but obviously it's just a theory on my part.

Undigested food in the stool is really a symptom of PDD. At this time it is unclear whether ABV really is the causative agent of PDD. It may have been thought to be linked just because so many birds have ABV (40-60%). MOST birds that have ABV never develop PDD.

Plucking and barbering can also be ABV symptoms.

Because of my bird having it and my vet being a world reknowned CAV who used to be one of the University of Tennessee researchers on it, I do constantly get up to date information on it. So if you would like to talk about it, feel free to PM me :) I can also give you my vet's information and she will do phone consultations with clients or their vets.

Don't panic though. Most of the info on the internet about ABV is already out of date they have been learning so much so quickly. I urge anyone who has concerns to talk to a vet who is up to date and not read articles on the internet about it. They will just scare you, usually unnecessarily and have you worrying about things that are known to not be true. Take a deep breath!

There is now a DNA test for ABV. I know the Univ of Ten can do it (it was invented there). So can some lab in Ohio and Avian Biotech, but my vet doesn't feel either of those labs are very reliable. My bird's test went to U of T.

[Flashzon]

Awesome info. I will talk with my vet this weekend. I'm lucky enough to work for her ;). I didn't know they could test for it so thats great. I know her original work up when I first got her was a standard avian profile and that was NOT included..

[roxynoodle]

Well, I don't think all owners need to test for ABV unless their bird is having symptoms that could indicate it. Since most birds never have symptoms, testing for it would just upset the owners. Also the DNA test has only been available for a couple of years. Prior to that they would test feces. Looking at the feces is horribly unreliable as ABV only lives outside the body for an extremely short amount of time. The researchers knew about the virus for like 20 years before they could separate it and identify it because it disappeared so quickly. They called it a "ghost virus" until it was finally identified as bornavirus in 2008.

So whatever you do, don't send feces for examination. Have your vet draw blood and send it to a lab that can do the DNA analysis.

Keep us updated :)

[Flashzon]

Thanks, I will :)

[Flashzon]

Just curious, and you may have answered this already... What's turn around on this test. I'm going to request a submission form from U of T

[roxynoodle]

I had it done over a year ago so I may not remember exactly but I want to say it was 2 weeks or so?

[Flashzon]

Sounds about right I would say.. I will let you know. Thanks so much again!!