Bite pressure training...help/advice please?

[MomtoPercy]

As I mentioned in my first thread, Percy and I did not hit it off when he first moved in. I have worked intensively with him to change that and we have made significant progress. Although from the embarassing pic attached, you may not think so.

Amazingly - THAT is progress! Previously, he bit me that it bled EVERY time. Admittedly, I was handling him wrong at first - too insistent and pushy and not attentive enough to his body language. Now, I wait for him to ask to be picked up...and then I get bit (not every time anymore, but often enoug).

I'm trying bite pressure training no. He's now learned that he is not allowed to (and I don't believe he wants to anymore) bite 'hard' but he equates 'hard' to 'wide open beak - which draws blood. He tries soooo hard to bite 'gently' and uses only the tip of his beak - which leaves these massive bruises! (the pic is the result of a few bites unfortunately in the same spot)

I engae in beak play while he's on his play gym (he won't sit in my lap yet) and he enjoys that and doesn't bite when we do this. However, he ASKS to be picked up by holding out his "pick me up foot" (left foot) and says "Come?" Which also means 'pick me up. So I hold my hand, he steps up and bites. If its too hard, I immediately say "No! Be gentle!" & return him to the gym, and walk away. I return within about 30 seconds (he calls for me all the time I'm away during these sessions) and give him the chance to try again. I tell him, before I hold my hand to be gentle (and I try to demonstrate by sooooftly rubbing his foot and his beak. Then I pick up him and he tries ever so hard to 'be gentle'. However, I think I may die of internal bleeding before we get this right.

Any tips and advice would be appreciated. My supply of arnica for bruises is running out LOL!

[Honesty]

That looks like a pretty nasty bruise Michelle :(

Maybe for a while you could try getting him to step onto a stick when he asks to be picked up. At least this way, if you can see he is going to bite, you can put him back on his stand before he gets the chance?

You are doing a great job with him and eventually, your perseverance will pay off :)

You could also try clicker training. I know quite a few people that have had great success with this type of training. If you look on Youtube, you will see quite a few videos on clicker training!

[coltfire]

i would be giving the same advise as Wendy,but do remember when a bird steps up they use there beak to work out how safe and steady it is for them to hold on, which does not help with how hard he is biting , but the more time goes on it will get better,but do check out clicker training.

[Wayne361]

I would also attempt to avoid the bites all together. By doing this I would train in a hands-off manner. You want to extinguish the behaviour over time and not reinforce it.
He is also making a game of "suckering" you into picking him up and biting IMO. Fun for the bird, but not for you so much :) He is training YOU in a sense as he knows the human will come pick him up again when he calls. Hence the cycle continues.
I will give you credit in the patience department but I wouldnt directly handle unless the bird has gained that privilege. For now do target training, simple tricks etc that allow bonding to increase and doesnt allow bird to bite (due to hands off nature).
Hope this helps,

Wayne

[MomtoPercy]

Thanks all, I will try your suggestions.

Wayne - I was wondering just yesterday if he thinks its a game!
Thanks for the comment on patience ;). It is so NOT my strong suite so I've been conciously keeping an eye on my patience levels to avoid doing something rash that may set us back. Must say though - anyone else who tried to bully me like this will certainly regret it! LOL. But I'm a sucker for my green pterodaktyl and I'm very stubborn so I keep going :)

[Wayne361]

Birds are smart creatures and like children will test you to see the reaction created. If it is favourable for the bird,(reaction) you can bet they will do it again and again. It is up to us to convince bird to do what we want as well as the bird - positive reinforcement. Reward the good and ignore/extinguish the bad.
I can guarantee you one thing.....your patience will be tested, over and over again BUT this is a good thing if you are a committed bird owner as it will help you gain greater and greater patience in life. Training is key..
Also, make sure you watch body language of bird and respect it. Zons are very good at signalling when they are not in a good mood or ready to strike. Again, avoid the bites and dont physically handle and give space at these times. The LAST thing you want is for the bird to get a reward from biting i.e. you jump, yell, give it what it wants etc. Basically if a bird realizes that biting does not benefit her/him in any way the behaviour will extinguish over time. Also as bond grows and bird is secure in your presence the biting should/will deminish.....
I would research target training and go from there....as a start.

Wayne

[Feathers First Aviary]

I really do think this has become a game for him, he asks to be picked up, you pick him up, then he bites. I've dealt with a lot of birds like this and I don't think that continuing the routine is going to get him to stop. I would start over completely honestly. Go to a different training skill that doesn't involve stepping up, I would try target training. It shouldn't take more than a week or so to teach him, amazons are very smart birds, and in that time, he may forget how much fun the lure and bite routine is. After you have him successfully targeting, and you can use a clicker for this if you'd like, place the target stick so that he has to step on your arm to reach it. He should be more focused on touching the target stick than he is on biting you. So have him step up, touch the target stick, give him his reward and return him to his perch. If you can get him to do this, even if he is only on you for a second, you just successfully picked him up without taking a bite and while that may not seem like a huge achievement, it really is. The key is to figure out how long you can hold him before he tries to bite you and return him to his perch before he reaches that point. Over time, try to extend the period that he is sitting on you without biting. Also, providing foot toys while you are holding him may really help with his beakiness as it will give him something to chomp on that isn't your flesh! Good luck and let us know how it goes :D

[MomtoPercy]

Thanks all, I've tried target training before but he was more interested in eating the chopstick! LOL! I'm going to continue with a different stick and see how it goes. :)

[Blancaej]

You have been givin very good advice here. How is it going?

[MomtoPercy]

Much better, thanks for asking! I haven't beenseriously bitten since this post and our clicker training is coming along very well :). He still gets his off days but then I just interact from a distance (talking, singing, etc). I believe that patience and training will overcome our issues. He may never adore me like he does my son but at least he doesn't hate me anymore :)

[Blancaej]

Glad to hear things are going better. Great job on your part! :D

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

[Shanlung]

An old writing I did long long time ago.
Up to you to decide if that is still valid.
It seemed to work with me on all my birdies.
Only creature it did not work with was my wife.
Nothing ever works on wife.
Anyone who knows what works on wife please tell me as I am all ears.



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extract from that

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Date: Sat Nov 8, 2003 1:50 am
Subject: Parrot on shoulder - being gentle

Folks, hello again!

I am back later than I wanted and trying to write this email a 2nd time courtesy of Bill Gates and his Windoze which crashed my PC just as I was about to press the send button.


I am unable to answer all directly as I seem to be perpertually
running short on time. It is after midnight here and I got
to get up early to go for yet another of our trips,
this time to a place called SuanLinSee that's about 20 km from
Hsitou that I have been to 4-5 times. Then this guy told me why
was I mucking with Hsitou when SuanLinSee is much more awesome.

This coming trip may be the last of the photo shoot of
Tinkerbell as my dear wife after just coming back from San Diego
will be heading off this monday to UK, of course, leaving me
behind to make the money to pay for her trip and to clean and
slave for the beasties all on my own for the next 4 weeks.

While I am happy that folks seem to find what I wrote
to be useful,I am concerned that while words may convey
information, the samewords can also mislead.

I do not advocate you allow your fid to be on
shoulder. I try to list out behaviours that you can take into account FOR
YOU TO DECIDE IF THEY CAN BE ALLOWED TO BE ON YOUR SHOULDER. I do
not even speak for CAGs not to mention of bigger and more powerful
fids like 2s. I speak of Tinkerbell. If you are in doubt, DO NOT ALLOW THEM
TO BE WHERETHEY CAN HURT YOU.

Considering that your fid and you will likely be
spending a lifetime together, does it matter if you do take a week , or a
month, or two months longer to establish a good relationship?

I wrote out what I thought to be point by point. To
keep that brief,I had to leave out other steps. So if you form the
impression the process is quick that can be dangerous to yourself.


So Kimberly, please be patient especially with your M2
Corky.

Physical injury to yourself may heal fast. Healing
for your mental state of mind may never heal completely if you
want to rush the process and end up fearing your charge.

Tinkerbell came to me via a petshop when she was about
6 months old. She barely allow me to head rub her at the beginning.
When she did, I used the head-rubbing exercises to slowly extend my
fingers at the same time to rub her wings and back and slowly her
legs and body as well. Her liking for head rubs lead her to slowly
allow other parts of her to be touched until the point that she
did not mind that at all. Teaching of 'gentleness' came only after
that.

Clicker training was a daily affair with her to slowly
develop the bond. That all took time, longer time than what you
may have inferred from my earlier letter.

So please look at the long term and enjoy your fids
whenever you spend time with them.








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I count myself very fortunate to have Tinkerbell.

You can see often enough from the photos that I allow
her to be on my shoulders. To avoid misunderstanding,
I need to clarify further why I do allow her there.

Whether on not you allow your charge to be on your
shoulders is something very personal as the danger to
yourself is very real. You must never allow yourself
to be badly hurt.

Obviously, if you need a hand help perch to get your
fid to step up on, that fid definately should never be
allowed on your shoulder.

If your fid does not recognise and immediately respond
on 'step up' to your hand and 'step up' from hand to
perches, he/she should not be allowed on shoulder
either.

If your fid cannot be headrubbed or beakrubbed by you,
that fid must also stay off your shoulder.

Imho, that even if they do all the above, that will
not be enough grounds for them to be on the shoulder.

It is not enough that you 'trust' them and they
'trust' you that they be allowed on shoulder either.
Trust may be misplaced.

The concept of gentleness also must be taught to them
and they must understand the word ' gentle' and
'gently' and act on that immediately. Only then, you
can consider if they can be allowed on your shoulders.

It was from clicker training that I developed the
strong bond with Tinkerbell.

She first allowed head rubs and later on, came and
demand head rubs on her own initiative.

While giving her head rubs or beak rubs, I also
introduced to her the concept of gentleness. I give
her vigorous head rubs. From time to time, while head
rubbing her, I will say ' gentle, gentle' or 'gently'.
At those times, I run my finger very delicately with
the finger tip barely touching her feathers or beak.

I sometimes even use one of her molted feather to
barely touch her feathers to gently stroke her.

Some of the games she plays with me can be very
vigorous. While she never hurt me, during those
times, she may beak me hard. At 'gentle, gentle' cue
from me, she eases up immediately. A few bouts of
cage time for her reinforced to her that gentleness is
important if she wants to remain with me.

She also loves to give me manicure, nibbling on the
cuticle and biting harder on the nails and sometimes
digging her beak into the quick under the nails.
Tinkerbell always eases up when I tell her 'gentle
gentle'. This was only at the beginning as since
then, she knows where and when she can exert pressure
and when to let up.

When she got to my shoulder, she beak my ear lobe. It
got to the stage now where she may dig the tip of her
beak into my ear to nibble. Again, 'gently gently'
cued her to be more gentle that she knows and respond
to at once.
>
> Even so, every morning/evening when she gets her head
> rubs, I still will do to her the 'gentle' routine
> because she likes it and I like to reinforce that with
> her.
>
> Unfortunately, it works only with me and my person.
> She will ignore all the 'gentle gentle' when she want
> to tear the buttons off my shirt. After her first
> refusal to listen to me, I stopped using 'gentle
> gentle' when she want to tear off the buttons to avoid
> giving her any further chance to lessen the value. I
> tell her instead 'no buttons' and push her head away.
>
> If Bim or Zor gets too near me and I see her walking
> with determination to them, I do not bother with
> 'gentle gentle' but tell Bimbo or Zorro to go away. I
> do not want to take the chance that the other two get
hurt.

I focused on 'gentle gentle' only with regards to my
body and on other people.



=====
With warmest regards

Shanlung
Joy - wife, Tinkerbell - CAG & surrogate daughter

[Casper's 2nd best friend]

3308
Found on the internet.