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View Full Version : Hz...driving our birds crazy?



jacksmom
09-19-2013, 09:21 PM
So, we all know to use full spectrum lighting for our fids...I imagine most of us go with florescents. Just read, however, that birds can see so much faster than we can - and with our 60hz lighting they can actually see the blinking...like someone turning the light on and off, on and off.

This has got to drive them nuts.

It seems 400+ hz is needed to get rid of the strobe light effect...any electricians on here? How do I do this? Researching electrical is making my eyes bleed! :banghead:

spiritbird
09-19-2013, 09:24 PM
I really have no knowledge of this. Perhaps we have an electrical engineer on board here.

jacksmom
09-19-2013, 09:26 PM
I know one, Spiritbird...should see him in a few days, and will ask him...really considering calling him now, lol...

weco
09-19-2013, 11:03 PM
There are a couple of solutions here & the first is...quit banging your head ! ! !

Next, wherever you are reading this information from sounds like it is sadly out of date or you are not really understanding what is needed to generate and deliver 400 hz electricity effectively.....

While it is true that our electricity is manufactured in 60 cycle frequencies, while other places use 50 cycle/Hz frequencies...that being said, DC motors are currently in operation, generating 400 hz power, but you mostly find them in planes and on locomotives.....to effectively generate 400 hz power for normal use, it is not quite as simple as changing your lip gloss or nail color.....the major factor against it is the associated cost factors.....are you interested in paying 10-15 times more for your power bill?

Now, as relates to fluorescent lights and the flicker you used to see and maybe still do with old fixtures.....unlike incandescent bulbs, fluorescent tubes require a starter and a somewhat higher power source to start & run fluorescent tubes.....several years ago, a bunch of countries got together & banned the use of old incandescent light bulbs for regular/normal use.....that's why they will disappear altogether by 2015, except in specialized applications that have nothing to do with bulbs as we now know them.....they've been banned from manufacture in most countries.....

Getting back to fluorescent flicker, mechanical ballasts, those heavy transformer type things found inside 4 foot, 8 foot and 12 foot fluorescent fixtures are going the way of the incandescent bulb.....enter the electronic ballast.....if you go purchase a new fluorescent fixture, it will have the new electronic, but there are still old ballasts currently installed.....each fluorescent light fixture will normally contain 1-2 ballasts, with new replacements costing from $20 upwards to around $100, then you have replacement labor costs, often starting around $30 per ballast & going up from there, especially for some difficult troffer lights.....

Those little CFLs (compact fluorescent lights - screw-in lamps) simply cannot produce the lighting you are led to believe...to arrive at any degree of full spectrum like lighting, you need to use special tubes of 4 foot, 8 foot or 12 foot lengths, 12, 16, 18 or 24 inch lamps are as bad as the CFLs.....they simply cannot produce what you think they can.....

If you read manufacturing and/or vendor data on these various lamps, you are being fed just so much marketing spin and they don't even offer you any salt or pepper.....

jacksmom
09-20-2013, 03:53 AM
Lol, yes, banging my head can't be helping! ;)

So, my electrical engineer friend didn't seem to think I had a very easy request either...but said he would "think on it".

Here is the info I was referring to:

"Birds can resolve rapid movements better than humans, for whom flickering at a rate greater than 50 Hz appears as continuous movement. Humans cannot therefore distinguish individual flashes of a fluorescent light bulb oscillating at 60*Hz, but Budgerigars and chickens have flicker thresholds of more than 100*Hz. A Cooper's Hawk can pursue agile prey through woodland and avoid branches and other objects at high speed; to humans such a chase would appear as a blur."

I believe the article recommended 120 hz or more...I didn't realize 400 was asking for that much! I think I was reading some birds can see that fast, but I have no idea on individual species so I just figured higher was better.

So...are you saying new fluorescent bulbs don't have the flicker because of DC current? I actually do have a compact florescent in his room, but he also has two big windows. Would love to get really optimal lighting as winter is coming...we don't pay for labor here, parts are all we would need...of course energy use is always a concern.

ShellyBorg
09-20-2013, 04:54 AM
For best lighting a couple skylights would be a amazing addition. No added power and a built in timer.

Turquoise
09-20-2013, 08:27 AM
I don't know anything about electrical stuff as in the article you mention or what weco was writing about. I do use one of the 4ft fluorescent fixtures with 2 tube style bulbs in it over both of my large macaw enclosures. I don't have special bulbs in it, as in the reptile UVB types I have used for my lizards & tortoises. The ones I use are sold as "natural lighting & I can't remember without taking them out what lumen wattage they are. My macaws rarely get to go outside. Right now I don't have any windows available for them where they are. They have been under these lights for almost 2 yrs for Roscoe & Angel with no problems thus far. When I move them into the old bedroom area I will have access to two windows facing south & west they will get extra lighting, but I will still use the fluorescent bulbs on a timer like I do now.

Do I think I give them the best lighting available? No, but it is what I have to work with & at least they are not sitting in a dark room with no light like some parrots have to live in. I do plan on building (hopefully by next summer) an outdoor patio/aviary room attached to my house that will be glassed in for use summer & winter. Not for housing the flock, rather for them & me to enjoy sitting in for fresh air & sun without the fear of my flighted kids disappearing into the sunset with me frantically chasing after them.:th_faint:

weco
09-20-2013, 11:06 AM
This could possibly be construed as one of those slippery slopes where a little bit of information can be dangerous.....

While 400 hz power generation is possible, it is not practical for power generation/usage as we know it.....

Although I could not find the article/text/publication you referenced, I did find it referenced in a forum/board/group patronized by pilots, mentioning that they had found it on wikipedia back in 2009, however the current wikipedia version has had that text removed...that being said, I'm going to venture that wherever the text did come from, it was somewhat older than 2009, a period predating the recent changes in fluorescent ballasts & the demise of the incandescent bulb.....

Depending on the tubes you are trying to power, there is a replacement ballast that will power them.....in some instances it may be cheaper to replace the whole fixture than just the ballast(s).....even those lowly CFLs have electronic ballasts in them.....they can also be dangerous ! ! !

That chunky piece of plastic, between the screw threads and the glass tube (in CFLs) houses your little electronic ballast and the way many globes are designed, they hold in the heat generated by these tubes/fixtures, causing premature failure of the CFL and creating a potential fire hazard.....I have a client who replaced all of the incandescent bulbs with CFLs, giving no thought to the possibility of creating a fire hazard by doing so.....their house was built in the 80s when downlighting & recessed lighting was the rage.....they have a breakfast counter that has 5 recessed fixtures above it, however the heat buildup factor was measured at over 250 degrees in another fixture.....she was sitting at the counter when she heard sizzling & crackling over her head, looked up & saw smoke coming out from under the fixture's lens.....

If you are replacing bulbs/tubes in recessed fixtures, you might want to have an electrical contractor (someone who deals with home lighting) and/or your local fire marshal inspect your recessed lighting fixtures with a view towards sufficient ventilation.....the problem is not with the fixture's wiring, it is the heat buildup that was not a concern back 10 or more years ago.....

Shelly had a good idea, but we are so concerned about the fading of our interior decor that the glass industry has virtually filtered out all the good properties provided by the sun, as does the acrylic covers of many skylights.....

If you are interested in the proper artificial lighting for your feathered friends, forget about decor matching/complementing fixtures & think 4 foot fixtures & tubes.....I've got quite a bit of lighting information posted on a couple of other forums, but given the jealousy that some of these groups/forums harbor for each other, I'll post the information here, rather than offer the links to the information.....

jacksmom
09-20-2013, 11:28 AM
That was copy pasted from Wikipedia yesterday...I couldn't find where I had originally found the info, but keyword search found it there.

I could do the 4ft tubes for $20, I light my fish systems in my store like that...wiring those is like rolling off a log for my crew anymore, we wouldn't even need to bring in our engineer. ;) I think that you are saying yes, the dc power means they don't flicker? Sorry, getting lost with technical jargon...

weco
09-20-2013, 02:49 PM
I think that you are saying yes, the dc power means they don't flicker? Sorry, getting lost with technical jargon...

I notice how you get someone else to make your decisions, so that if anything goes wrong there is a warm body available for finger pointing.....does that hold equally true when savings are realized, that the one who pointed you in that direction shares, residually, in the bounty ? ? ?

Here I was going on about aged data and I offer up a 2000 document for your perusal:

[Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]







OK, before you take me to task for giving you erroneous information, all fluorescent lights flicker

jacksmom
09-20-2013, 06:13 PM
No, not looking to point any fingers if something goes wrong...not really sure how that question made you think that.

Not sure what got you so riled up, but I apologize for my complete ignorance in electrical (90% of what you said was way above my head, it is no wonder I have blundered into offending you) and thank you for the help and the link. :)

weco
09-20-2013, 07:57 PM
OOOps.....there was no concern on my part and no apologies expected from anyone in the thread.....there was no blundering, because electricity is a topic not easily understood. In the u.S., the voltage standard is 120v & 240v. while in many other countries, the standards range from 110 volts to 250 volts and 50 Hz or 60 Hz and even differences within a given country.....Japan and Brazil are two countries where you can purchase appliances that will work in one part of the country but might not work in another part of the country because the voltages are different.....

If you have ever traveled away from North America, you probably packed a multi-plug/multi-transformer travel pack so your hair dryer would still work wherever you traveled.....

Then there is always phase synchronization of electricity, to discuss.....

My commentary in the earlier posting was totally tongue-in-cheek and it's misinterpretation can probably be attributed to the fact that I despise emoticons, like I do texting shorthand.....so, I guess any apology should be offered to you.....