Zaffer: Zaf had a terrible accident :'(

[plax]

A couple of phone-cam snaps...

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[Blancaej]

Nummy! :th_biggrin: He's lookin' good, even with everything you found out. At least that is something positive out of all this mess. :th_wink:

[aliray]

Tony I have not been on the forum for a while and just read all the posts about Zaff. I am so sorry. Are their any zoos or wildlife rehabs around you that would have and treat large birds? They would have vets that I would think would maybe have a better understanding of treatments and prognosis? Just a thought. Hugs Alison

[plax]

Tony I have not been on the forum for a while and just read all the posts about Zaff. I am so sorry. Are their any zoos or wildlife rehabs around you that would have and treat large birds? They would have vets that I would think would maybe have a better understanding of treatments and prognosis? Just a thought. Hugs AlisonHi Alison. Thanks for the suggestion. One of the first things I did after Zaf came home the day of the accident was to contact the Raptor Center. I spoke with the director there. She said that they typically leave splints on for similar breaks for only 10 days. She seemed shocked that my vet said Zaf should remain splinted for 4 to 6 weeks. Other vets have indicated 2 to 3 weeks is adequate, whereas my vet said he wanted to leave Zaf's splint on longer because of his age (he's 24). I'm unsure what to make from all of it, but Dr Scott didn't seem to think that 4 to 6 weeks was unreasonable.

The director of the Raptor Center also seemed to think that the jagged teeth-like cogs on the splint material pressing into Zaf's leg and foot flesh were unacceptable. She said I should bring it to my vet's attention. I did just that, and you've probably read earlier in this thread about the outcome.

Calling the Raptor Center again and asking if their vets are accessible is a good idea. I may do that, depending upon the feedback I receive from other avian vets. I've already sent a message with the radiographs to one avian vet this morning, and I'm planning to contact one or two others tomorrow.

Thanks again :)

[aliray]

Tony I think that is a good idea and worth a try. Those xrays didn't look so good and the sharp points on the cast? I would also doubt that Zaff caused those. Usually on casts I have had on everything is padded first and the rough edges are also covered. I have had a few in my time. Did your vet explain why the bones were not brought into alignment?

[plax]

Those xrays didn't look so good and the sharp points on the cast? I would also doubt that Zaff caused those.He didn't create them! I watched him like a hawk since the moment he came home and he left his splint entirely alone until it was removed over 4 weeks later.


Usually on casts I have had on everything is padded first and the rough edges are also covered. I have had a few in my time.In addition to no inside cushioning, the inside top jagged edge of Zaf's splint wasn't even covered externally. I had to snip off the pointy parts and cover the edge with vet wrap.


Did your vet explain why the bones were not brought into alignment?All he said was that he had hoped for a better alignment, but that it should heal adequately.

[Honesty]

A couple of phone-cam snaps...

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[Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks] are stunning pics of Zaf:

[plax]

For those interested, I emailed Dr. Scott McDonald earlier today and sent him links to Zaf's x-ray images. Below is my email to him, and below that is his response.


Hi again Dr. McD...

Zaffer's cast came off on 10/9, but he's still unable to grasp with his foot. His intertarsal joint (I believe that's what it's called - the one that effectively serves as his ankle joint) continues to be somewhat swollen. I'm unsure whether this may be a factor in his lack of ability to grasp with the foot.

I've obtained Zaffer's radiograph images. There are 4 of them: 2 pre-splint shots from 9/5, 1 post-splint shot from 9/5, and one shot from just before the splint was removed on 10/9. Several people (all individuals without veterinary/medical training or knowledge) have commented that the post-splint images appear to indicate that the bone segments were never set. They have urged me to have Zaf's leg re-broken and pinned. But I'm not sure that's sound advice and I would really like to know.

Below are links to each of the 4 radiographs described above. Would you mind looking at them and telling me if you think the repair looks to be acceptable? I want Zaf to have as much ability as possible in the future and, most of all, be safe when climbing and hanging, etc. He's a very active parrot!

Thanks Doctor.

pre-splint image view 1 from 9/5/13
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pre-splint image view 2 from 9/5/13
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post-splint image from 9/5/13
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final image before splint removal on 10/9/13
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Tony:

I looked at the x-rays.
In retrospect, with a clean mid-shaft Fx of the tibia, pinning would have been the best option.
However it can still heal fine with the splint.

I know it doesn't look like there's a lot of bony callus buildup at the fx site, but I'm guessing when the vet feels the area of the break, it feels firm. I'm guessing there is healing of the area around the fx site and it will take more time to form a good bony callus.

I would be hesitant to do surgery now. You might do more harm to healing blood vessels, nerves, muscles, and bone if you open the leg and place a pin. It might cause a setback or make things worse. Just give it more time to heal. There's no urgency to do anything else. Yes the bones aren't positioned perfectly together, but it can still heal OK.

I'd have another x-ray taken down the road in another 3-4 weeks to re-evaluate and look for more callus formation at the fx site.

I'd also offer extra calcium. In the attachment is a liquid calcium supplement you can pick up locally and put in the drinking water. I recommend this for breeding birds that lay lots of eggs. May help.

Keep me posted
S McD

[ShellyBorg]

I love Doctor Scott, I can't wait for him to come through next month and do well birds on everyone!

I can't wait to see what other vets will think.

[aliray]

Tony At least he seems to think it will heal with time and it sounds like he has offered you good advice with an understandable recommendation and the reasoning behind it.

[Debra]

Tony -- those are beautiful pics of Zaf. It's good to see him standing on both legs without that cumbersome splint.

[plax]

Tony -- those are beautiful pics of Zaf. It's good to see him standing on both legs without that cumbersome splint.Thanks Debra. Check out my next post!

[plax]

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[Debra]

Oh, Tony!! That does my heart good to see! Way to go Zaf!

[plax]

He still can't grasp anything... but he's getting plenty of physical therapy climbing up on my shoulder all the time (where he usually insists upon being ;)). And often now while he's walking he doesn't have to put his beak down to take a step with his bad leg. But he does have a fairly serious limp :(. I'm very much hoping that he will continue to improve on all points. This has been his best day so far!

[Mare]

Aww, that was wonderful to see! Tony, I just spoke with my vet and she's really not comfortable giving any thoughts or advice without the bird in hand and without previous medical records, sorry :(. She said that if you called her office she would be more than happy to give you a name and number of a board certified specialist closest to you but you probably already know this? If you need her number, let me know in a PM, again, I'm sorry I couldn't help.

She actually beat me to the phone and called me first to give me the results on Amigo's test but I'll add that to his seizure post.

[plax]

Aww, that was wonderful to see! Tony, I just spoke with my vet and she's really not comfortable giving any thoughts or advice without the bird in hand and without previous medical records, sorry :(. She said that if you called her office she would be more than happy to give you a name and number of a board certified specialist closest to you but you probably already know this? If you need her number, let me know in a PM, again, I'm sorry I couldn't help.

She actually beat me to the phone and called me first to give me the results on Amigo's test but I'll add that to his seizure post.That's okay, Mare. I've already discussed our situation with doctors McDonald and Speer. Thanks for your effort and your concern :)

[plax]

And here is Dr. Speer's response:


Hi, Tony -

Thanks for your note and inquiry.

There are some differences in bone healing as would be expected in birds as compared to mammals. Probably the most important is that bone stabilization is initially accomplished via the formation of fibrous callus, which helps stabilize the fracture site, and at a later pace boney matrix is then laid down. These types of long bone fractures are often palpably stable at the rough three week period post fracture repair, although they still appear to be "not healed" radiographically. On your final radiographic image, you can see that there is soft tissue swelling over the fracture site, consistent with the formation of fibrous callus. Probably the most important assessment of degree of healing is how the leg feels at careful palpation, rather than its radiographic appearance.

Favoring of the leg after it is removed from a supportive splint such as this is not an uncommon event, and is even seen after a surgical repair at this same stage of healing. Post-procedural pain management can help ease the comfort of your bird, and may be a worthwhile consideration here. Most often, I would expect that there would be normal weight bearing and function of the injured leg in about 3-4 weeks after removal of splints in this case or hardware from a surgical repair.

...

The criteria for a decision to re-set a fracture such as this really lie predominately on the form and function of the leg after it has healed and you have had a chance to observe. With conservative splinting / bandaging - there often can be less than perfect allignment of the ends of a transverse fracture such as this, but functional healing still can occur. With a surgical repair, the allignment more often is more clean, with end-on-end allignment more clear to achieve. Neither of these types of repair methods are absolutely right or wrong - depending on variables considered with patient, budget and healing / functional needs expectations at the time of injury and initial consultation / evaluation. You may be hearing some recommendations based on mammalian expectations from your friends, and possibly without interpretive adjustments to the manner of repair being attempted and its anticipated outcome. These splints can result in some swelling at that ankle joint, which typically would resolve with benign neglect and time, as mentioned earlier.

It is wise to restrict the height that your bird climbs to, as a fall and sudden blow to the leg could at this stage result in a re-fracturing of the injury. At least another two weeks of exercise restriction would be important, again - qualified by my presumption that the fracture site palpated stable when the splint was removed. Any worsening in the use of the leg, increased swelling, or other concerns should prompt a repeat physical evaluation.


Brian Speer, DVM
Diplomate, ABVP (avian practice)
Diplomate, ECZM (avian)




Based upon the opinions of and advice from these two very qualified avian vets, it appears that the best option for Zaf is to simply allow him to finish healing.

[spiritbird]

Wow that is a good response from a Doc. I was wondering how Salsa was doing in all this and your video answered that question. I am betting with a little more time Zaf will get his grasp back.

[Macaw Lover]

I feel a whole lot better, especially after Dr Speer's explanation, and have a better understanding of the healing process.

Dr Scott mentioned the calcium am surprised it would be something you would add to water. Someone else that I know of from another forum is Don who also sells the calcium but I don't know if that would be added to water or food or what. Here is his link in case you want his info. [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]

Does Zaf do the full Hy hop or does he only do the hoping part? I prefer seeing the full hop, it just melts my heart when they do it but I also realize not all Hys do it, but the bouncing instead.

Thank you for contacting both Dr Scott and Dr Speer, I think we can all breath a sigh of relief, knowing this is not something totally out of the ordinary and what to expect in the healing stages because I have to admit I was scared for your little guy after seeing those x-rays.

I am not a doctor I just have to code (medical records) like one :th_toofunny:

Give that little boy of yours a few extra kisses from me.

[Blancaej]

You must be feeling a whole lot better after those responses!

Now I'm going to watch the videos you posted! :D
Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

[plax]

I feel a whole lot better, especially after Dr Speer's explanation, and have a better understanding of the healing process.You and me, both!


Dr Scott mentioned the calcium am surprised it would be something you would add to water. Someone else that I know of from another forum is Don who also sells the calcium but I don't know if that would be added to water or food or what. Here is his link in case you want his info. [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks] I was unable to locate any of the liquid locally, so I ordered some from a livestock supply company in Alabama today. Despite that it's priced at $4.95, it cost me $65.00 because I had it sent 'next day air' so I can start Zaf on it ASAP!


Does Zaf do the full Hy hop or does he only do the hoping part? I prefer seeing the full hop, it just melts my heart when they do it but I also realize not all Hys do it, but the bouncing instead.No. Zaf only does the bounce. But I love the way he combines it with his chicken-flapping to the rhythm of music :D. Ironically, it's Salsa who does the full "Hy" hop ;)


Thank you for contacting both Dr Scott and Dr Speer, I think we can all breath a sigh of relief, knowing this is not something totally out of the ordinary and what to expect in the healing stages because I have to admit I was scared for your little guy after seeing those x-rays.Again, you and me, both! You don't have to thank me... I LOVE and ADORE this guy!!!


I am not a doctor I just have to code (medical records) like one :th_toofunny:Oh, what fun ;)


Give that little boy of yours a few extra kisses from me.Will do :th_biggrin:

[plax]

You must be feeling a whole lot better after those responses!Indeed so!


Now I'm going to watch the videos you posted! :DEnjoy! :)

[Debra]

Tony -- I seem to remember a post about videoing Zaf watching the F Troop show. Have you gotten him dancing to the music yet?

[plax]

Tony -- I seem to remember a post about videoing Zaf watching the F Troop show. Have you gotten him dancing to the music yet?Oh, that's right. I'll have to try and remember to do it. He has been dozing off earlier lately (earlier than he used to, that is - before F Troop comes on)... but the exact time varies, so I'll watch for an opportunity. I believe I did post a clip of him chicken-flapping to the Rawhide song a while back, though.

[plax]

Zaf is feeling a bunch better! A bit ago he climbed down to the floor, snuck over to the nearest heat register grate, then pulled the grate clean out of its floor cutout and proceeded to carry it around with him. Bad bird!

[Debra]

Oh, I love it! I can just see him trying to be sneaky about pulling it out of the floor then prancing around with it saying "look what I've got"!

[Macaw Lover]

Zaf is feeling a bunch better! A bit ago he climbed down to the floor, snuck over to the nearest heat register grate, then pulled the grate clean out of its floor cutout and proceeded to carry it around with him. Bad bird!

And it's not like you can even get mad at him. Gotta love each and every one of those blue feathers on that guy.

[Honesty]

Zaf is feeling a bunch better! A bit ago he climbed down to the floor, snuck over to the nearest heat register grate, then pulled the grate clean out of its floor cutout and proceeded to carry it around with him. Bad bird!It sounds like Zaf is getting back to his normal self :) You must be very pleased to see him doing his normal mischievous things!

[plax]

It sounds like Zaf is getting back to his normal self :) You must be very pleased to see him doing his normal mischievous things!Absolutely so! :D

[Mare]

So good to hear of him acting more like himself and feeling more comfortable. When he walks around does his toes land straight out in front of him? I ask because when Amigos foot went limp, he just kind of drug his toes behind. That slowly improved back to normal, I just hope you continue to see baby steps of improvement in Zaf :)

[plax]

So good to hear of him acting more like himself and feeling more comfortable. When he walks around does his toes land straight out in front of him? I ask because when Amigos foot went limp, he just kind of drug his toes behind. That slowly improved back to normal, I just hope you continue to see baby steps of improvement in Zaf :)Thanks Mare. Yes, when Zaf walks his toes are pointed straight ahead - he used to drag them and stumble. About one third of the time he still puts his beak down to help him take steps... but mostly not, now. He does walk with a limp, though. And he still can't grasp to any degree. But he does have some minimal toe control. His face and head scratches with his bad foot are getting better and better :)

[Mare]

This is excellent news!! I believe he's on his way, Tony!

[plax]

This is excellent news!! I believe he's on his way, Tony!I'm really hoping that's the case. He's been sleeping on my chest and whenever I'm sitting on his couch with him he almost always climbs up to my shoulder and sits there against my ear. And he's impressively stable on my shoulder... of course I only allow him up there when I'm sitting on his couch with him. So I think he's doing fairly well. But he still very much needs his grasp back :(

[Rescued]

I'm sure that what he needs is time, Things can take a while to get back to normal. Heck when I broke my thumb it hurt for a year and a half after the cast came off. We all want things to improve rapidly and I'm sure its demoralizing to see him struggle, but it will get better with time. I'm so glad that he has done so well over that last few months, I know that he is grateful to have such great care from you.

[Macaw Lover]

I am so happy for you that you can see improvement in his foot. Time, little steps (in more ways than one) and more time. He is such a little trooper, but then, you already knew that.

[plax]

I was going to post about this yesterday.

I took Dr. McD's advice on the calcium gluconate solution 23% for Zaf's water. I wasn't able to locate the stuff at any of the feed or farm supply stores in my area. Hence I ordered a bottle from a livestock supply company in Alabama and had it shipped via UPS 'next day air' so I could start Zaf on it ASAP. Once it arrived, I used a syringe (with a needle) to carefully measure and add 3 ml per each 4 ounces of water to Zaf's stainless steel water bowl. What does he do? He dips in and tastes the treated water, pulls up and shakes his head in disapproval, then quickly retreats from the water bowl. I tried for half the day to get him to drink the treated water... but he wanted no part of it! I tasted the treated water myself, and it simply tasted like normal water to me.

I knew Zaf was thirsty since I know his eating and drinking patterns. After he'd gone quite a while without drinking water -continuing to refuse the treated stuff- I tried one more time and he still refused it. So I set a ceramic crock of untreated water down beside the stainless steel water bowl and Zaf started drinking the untreated water like crazy. After this failed effort, Zaf now refuses to drink even untreated water from a stainless steel bowl. Obviously, he doesn't trust SS bowls for water anymore... he'll only drink untreated water from a ceramic crock now. And BTW, the next day air shipping charge on that stuff was $65.00 ... haha, oh well ;).

What I've learned: Zaf obviously has a far more acute ability to taste things than I do! Who says parrots have a poor sense of taste compared to humans? :th_biggrin:

[Mare]

I know when it comes to Serrano peppers, Amigo has no feeling! He'll eat those things without flinching! As far as meds or vitamins, forget it!! There is no way I'm getting that past the tip of his beak with out being toweled and syringed!

[Macaw Lover]

Have you tried mixing it into the foods? Can it be added to the foods?

I always cringe when something is for chickens and stuff, because what can be fed to say chickens is not necessarily safe for our babies and since you got it from a feed store type place, is it made for parrots or the same stuff Scott told you to get????

I know, worry wart here. I know the stuff Don sells has been used on Macaws. I trust Scott and know never to put any type of meds in the water because you cannot tell how much they actually drink of it or if they do drink any at all.

Zaffer knew what you were up to and you don't have him fooled for one minute but in this case, he is too smart for his own good.

[plax]

Have you tried mixing it into the foods? Can it be added to the foods?

I always cringe when something is for chickens and stuff, because what can be fed to say chickens is not necessarily safe for our babies and since you got it from a feed store type place, is it made for parrots or the same stuff Scott told you to get????

I know, worry wart here. I know the stuff Don sells has been used on Macaws. I trust Scott and know never to put any type of meds in the water because you cannot tell how much they actually drink of it or if they do drink any at all.

Zaffer knew what you were up to and you don't have him fooled for one minute but in this case, he is too smart for his own good.Yes, Renee' ...it's exactly the stuff Scott told me to get! And it's not even for chickens; it's for cattle. It's simply Calcium Gluconate 23% solution "Sterile and Preservative Free". The other 77% is water. Here's the link that Scott included containing its description and dosage:

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Note the part that says:


Where to buy: Feed stores, such as Tractor Supply or Farm and Fleet. Go to the veterinary section.

But so much of the stuff has to be added to Zaf's water (3ml/4oz.) that adding it to his food instead would not result in much of it getting into his system. Plus, he's extremely picky about his food and he hasn't been eating much since his accident compared to the amount he used to eat. So I don't want to do anything that might put him off from the food he is eating. He's down 150 grams from what he used to weigh in the mornings :(

And yes, he's too smart for his own good. I hope at some point I'll be able to get him to trust SS water bowls again. I told Scott about the issue and he replied that he's never encountered a bird refusing to drink water treated with this stuff before.

[plax]

I know when it comes to Serrano peppers, Amigo has no feeling! He'll eat those things without flinching! As far as meds or vitamins, forget it!! There is no way I'm getting that past the tip of his beak with out being toweled and syringed!It sure can be difficult, Mare :(

[coltfire]

it's good to hear he is coming along well Tony, it's a slow Rd to recovery, one i know way too well.

[kendrafitz]

I haven't been on much, but I was so glad to finally get on and read about Zaf. Picturing him sneaking over to the heat grate made me smile. So happy he is getting better.

Did Zaf see you put the treatment in the water? Just wondering if he saw you and knew something was up. :)

[plax]

I'm not sure, Kendra... On one end of his couch he can see into the other room around the corner and thus has a visual shot at part of the area where I was preparing his water. But if I remember correctly, I kept looking back to see if he was watching, and it seems like he wasn't in view. I guess I can't know for sure, though.

[kendrafitz]

You never know, he is a smartie! :)

[Wulfgeist]

Poor Zaf, he's not had an easy time of things. Hope he's getting on better now, how are you holding up?

[plax]

Hi RJ. We're both doing okay. Thanks :). Zaf is gaining more strength and ability in his leg and foot with each passing day. He actually climbed up a cage grate panel using both feet two days ago, and he climbed up the bars on the door of a kennel carrier and then proceeded to perch on its top yesterday. In both cases, I wasn't looking. He knows I won't let him do such things, so he waits for his opportunities to be sneaky ;). He's feeling much better :D

[plax]

I've posted some video clips of Zaf's recovery status, here: [Users must be registered and logged in to view attached photos or hyperlinks]